Career Advice

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Career Advice

Postby Soñadora » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:09 am

now that I have a pretty good idea what I want to do when I grow up, I'm considering going back to school.

but, I'm a bit on the other side of over-the-hill. Would it make any sense? My company will pay for it, so that's not really an issue. It would take me probably 3 years to finish (part time). By then, I'll be 10 years +/- from retirement.

I like my company. I've made the statement that this will probably be the last company I ever work for. I may have had my fingers crossed behind my back when I said that.

But, if I ever do want to advance here, I won't be able to go any further than I am now without a degree. Then the question becomes, do I care if I advance? I'm currently a supervisor of 5 of the best guys I've ever come across in this business. No complaints there. Why would I want to advance? It may seem that I would want to do that for the money. No doubt that is one part of it, but deep down I have a feeling I can do so much more if I had a broader perspective. And not just more for the company, but more for my sense of accomplishment.

Of course, if my vented work goggles thing ever takes off, this could be a moot point :)
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Brooke » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:02 pm

Sounds like a win-win to me. They'll pay for it and you want to learn and are willing to do the work. Only drawback that I could see us that you could over-educate yourself out of the job position that you like. Speaking from experience here - I was most of the way through a phd program when I realized that the jobs I was really interested were masters level jobs. Finished the phd anyway, and then took four years to convince someone to hire me for a job that I want to do but am technically overqualified for (thank you, Eckerd College! I just started work last week after graduating in 2009 and then working at a kayak shop for three years and finally moving to Florida for better opportunities). Since you're already working at a company you like that may not be a problem but just make sure you want to do the jobs they will want you to do with the advanced degree!
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Re: Career Advice

Postby SloopJonB » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:19 pm

Now there is a question that only you can answer. My dad was in the same place years ago - he was an agro scientist for the feds and was plateaued unless he got his PhD. We went to England for two years when he was 46 so he could get it.

You have to know what you want - it's a big commitment. Also, in most cases it will cost you - he was on 1/2 salary for two years so the economics enter into it - will you make it back & then some?

I know if I had to start over, I'd get a trade instead of an "education".
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Soñadora » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:55 pm

it's a dilemma. No doubt about it. I would not have to incur any loss in salary. It would not cost me a dime (as long as I kept 2.8 gpa). It would be a big time committment. I went to school for a trade (I'm a 'draughtsman' - the 'augh' looking so much more sophisticated). One of the questions is whether or not I really want to advance my career. I left drafting behind a long time ago. I did it so much I got burned out and stopped enjoying it. I eventually made my way more into computer stuff as I wrote macros, scripts, and full-blown applications to support my CAD habit. That's essentially how I ended up in the IT world.

This year was my first foray into managing people. Seems most folks don't care too much for managing people, but I have to say I truly enjoy it. People are the most valuable resource a company can have and knowing how to make the most of that resource is a highly sought after skill. Oddly, I enjoy the challenge of being an enabler. Navigating the burearacracy in a fashion that ultimately makes my team extremely productive.

In order to achieve a higher level of effective leadership, right or wrong, having a sheepskin will make that more probable.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby kimbottles » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:12 pm

That all said, keep in mind that neither Bill Gates or Steve Jobs have/had a degree.

(And the guy who my partner and I have installed as President of our company is just a high school graduate.)

Do the degree if YOU will get value out of it. Don't just do it to have a sheepskin......
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Hobot » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:58 pm

"I'm a 'draughtsman' - the 'augh' looking so much more sophisticated"

I would have thought that was a earned degree in beer drinking.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Rob McAlpine » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:33 pm

Soñadora wrote:now that I have a pretty good idea what I want to do when I grow up


Are you sure you want to grow up?
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Orestes Munn » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:03 pm

People management is the hardest part of my job and not the least enjoyable.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby LarryHoward » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:00 pm

kimbottles wrote:That all said, keep in mind that neither Bill Gates or Steve Jobs have/had a degree.

(And the guy who my partner and I have installed as President of our company is just a high school graduate.)

Do the degree if YOU will get value out of it. Don't just do it to have a sheepskin......



This. Far too many jobs are labeled with degree requirements when what hiring managers are looking for is an ability to take an analytical approach to solving a task. As I remind my kids, up through high school, they learn some basic skills. An undergraduate learns how to approach challenges in a general field from a structured approach -learning how to learn and explore so to speak. Post grads learn how to leverage learning to extend knowledge.

Bottom line is that adult education needs to serve a personal need. Leverage it to satisfy the HR folks if you have to but study things that interest and challenge you. The ability to select, motivate and lead good people isn't valued by the HR community but is key to management success.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby kimbottles » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:47 pm

Orestes Munn wrote:People management is the hardest part of my job and not the least enjoyable.


+1

(I have found that if you hire adults and let them do their stuff with minimal interference everyone ends up quite happy. At least it has worked well for us since we bought the company back in 1994.)
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Jamie » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:53 pm

Even if the company pays, it's a big commitment of time and energy, so do it because it engages you, not for the sheepskin. If something good comes out career wise; well that's gravy on the top. You're pretty well established in your career and your track record will speak much more loudly than a sheepskin.

Anyway, smart employers care more about how well you studied than what you specifically studied, (licensing requirements aside).

I always try to hire people that are smarter, nicer and more ambitious than myself, (possibly not so hard). It increases my quality of life, my performance and if I've done it right, it gives me the opportunity to see good people do amazing things.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby BeauV » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:42 am

kimbottles wrote:That all said, keep in mind that neither Bill Gates or Steve Jobs have/had a degree.

(And the guy who my partner and I have installed as President of our company is just a high school graduate.)

Do the degree if YOU will get value out of it. Don't just do it to have a sheepskin......


I'm not sure but I think you have to add Larry Ellison, Henry Ford, Carnage, and a host of other folks to the list of no-degree and really-successful.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Orestes Munn » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:42 am

BeauV wrote:
kimbottles wrote:That all said, keep in mind that neither Bill Gates or Steve Jobs have/had a degree.

(And the guy who my partner and I have installed as President of our company is just a high school graduate.)

Do the degree if YOU will get value out of it. Don't just do it to have a sheepskin......


I'm not sure but I think you have to add Larry Ellison, Henry Ford, Carnage, and a host of other folks to the list of no-degree and really-successful.

Very different era, but that guy Carnage is still my management role model. ;)
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Soñadora » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:09 am

I don't have the personality of an Ellison or a Carnegie. Plus, I think in a lot of cases for successful people, good timing and a little luck was involved. Certainly, 'the harder I work the luckier I get' applies, but there's a time component to that which I really don't have the advantage of. A lot of these guys just kept at it in one place doing one thing and doing it well. In my case, I've been a bit of a vagabond with my career. I haven't been in one position (or even one industry) for more than a year. In order to move into a position such as the one Kim mentioned, I'd need a pretty significant track record. No one would put me in that position based entirely on my wits. Case in point, the guy who will be our new CEO starting next year started at the company when he was 14 working in a warehouse. He's 54.

Over the past year, I've gained a very keen interest in the financial and physical aspects of commodities. It's as though I've stepped into a whole other world - the infrastructure that holds everything up. The pervasive nature of what we do is both awesome and concerning. And since all things money have eluded my right-brain dominated existence, I feel compelled to overcome my own limitations.

It's now or never. If I decide to do this, I have to do it now.

Otherwise, I'll just continue as is and pursue my desire to become a sculptor. :)
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Re: Career Advice

Postby BeauV » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:54 pm

Rick,

I think you're exactly correct when you identify focus and drive as the factors that made a lot of folks successful. I have had the good fortune to know a few really successful folks and none of them achieved what they did through pure luck. They were working their asses off in their field and were perfectly trained and positioned to take advantage of "opportunity" when it came knocking. In the case of Gates, he was actually the second choice of IBM at the time. The chosen supplier was too arrogant to bother making time for the IBM meeting, he was "busy" flying his private plane. Gates was so focused and driven that he dropped everything and just did what IBM wanted. Yes, it was "luck" that Gary Kildall screwed up and missed the IBM meeting, but it was years of hard work and focus that let Gates score the win.

As to more education, I think that always makes sense if the education is in an area that can pay off. A the holder of a degree in Philosophy I can attest to the existence of numerous degrees that do not make sense economically. I've always encouraged my kids to leverage school as much as they can. Don't discount the benefits of the friendships you'll make in school. Those friendships and contacts, and the alumni base for whichever school it is, are strong levers in the business world.

Cheers,

Beau
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Re: Career Advice

Postby SloopJonB » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Beau, you've just described the old line "Luck is preparation meeting opportunity". Particularly true in the world of work.

Formal education is a good thing but with the enormous cost of university degrees these days I think it behooves one to be sure they are going to receive significant downstream economic advantage from their chosen discipline. I know many people who never made up the cost of their education plus the years of lost earnings. My oldest friend (age 2 when we met) is a PhD in psychology and he figures he lost economically - 12 years of essentially zero income plus the huge cost of the schooling left him behind others who chose a less education intensive career. He gets a lot of satisfaction from his work but it didn't work financially for him.

Of course this doesn't apply to those who want to work in a scholarly or academic environment like scientific research - there your degree is everything.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Soñadora » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:48 pm

Just to clarify, this will not be costing me anything but time. Employer is paying for it. That said, it's still an investment. What activities will I need to forego? I brought this up on one of the only other forums I frequent and one guy related that it contributed to losing his marriage. Minna and I have been discussing this for some time. I don't see that being an issue for us. She's a very pragmatic and driven person. She sees the benefit (she has a Master's in Economics).
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Orestes Munn » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:53 pm

Just to note, competitive PhD programs in the basic sciences provide support for their students with a combination of training grants and teaching fellowships. One would have to be crazy to pay cash, in my opinion.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby kdh » Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:58 pm

I've been happiest when in school, and I went back twice while working. It was clear to me, especially the second time, that work wouldn't be more lucrative as a result but I might be happier at work.

Now I find myself wealthy. Because of the extra school? Maybe.
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Jamie » Thu Nov 28, 2013 7:26 pm

Going to school always felt like a holiday to me....
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Re: Career Advice

Postby floating dutchman » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:50 am

Read the OP, but very skip read the the replys.

First question, When you started you job, what did you want to be doing? and are you enjoying your job right now?
With the extra skills that work wants you to have, What will your new roll be and would you enjoy it?
I've seen lots of people "go up the ladder" at work, then hate their new roll, I laugh at them, I just tell them that I'm a baggy assed sparky and you give me the problem and I go solve it, that's what I got into this game to do and that's what I'm happy doing at work.

Pay, lets say your on 50K, how much would the new role pay? 55K sounds nice but if you don't enjoy your job It’s not actually making your life better, That extra 5K just gets soaked up in your existing life style.
If they are going to offer you 100K, then go talk to herindoors, Yea I'm going to come home from work grumpy doing a job I don't like, But this is a real life style change if WE want it.

Food for thought

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Re: Career Advice

Postby Soñadora » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:22 pm

FD

Good points all. At the risk of being BV-esque... ;)

Despite evidence that I should do something else, when I was younger I envisioned myself as some sort of engineer. I started drafting when I was 10. My grandfather gave me an Alvin drafting kit for Christmas. I still have parts of that kit. I took drafting in high school and loved it. I was also into electronics by then. Out of high school, I enrolled in an electronics technology course in Florida. I was a B student. It was a fairly chaotic time of my life (early 20s) and I never finished. I gathered my resolve and entered University of Florida. I was in AF ROTC and began a pursuit of Aerospace Engineering. More personal chaos ensued and I dropped out. I ended up in MN in 1988. I again enrolled in a trade school in pursuit of an Architectural Drafting degree. After one summer as an intern with an architect, I quickly learned that my personality was a poor fit for the indentured servitude of an Architectural Draftsman/floor sweeper. I switched to Mechanical Design where I was finally able to draw curves. I was in my element. That was around the time when most places were switching over to CAD, so I had a good dose of both board drafting and CAD. I was an A student and I was surprised to find out that some of my work done in the early 90s is still being used as examples in the curriculum there.

After that, the plan was to enroll in the U of M and pursue a ME degree. But the summer after graduation I got a REAL job making $10/hr. I was finally able to eat something other than Ramen and I could even buy my own booze. Fat with cash, thoughts of going back to school faded and instead I went after chicks. Eventually finding the one I'm married to. Career wise, I muddled along from one mechanical drafting job to another. In more than one case, I made some costly mistakes with my drawings. This usually happened when a project would drag on for more than 3 months. Short attention span.

I continued to attempt getting a college degree. I took most of the prereqs for engineering, but it just wasn't working out. The math was elusive for me. I don't have enough left brain. I could do the work. I even enjoyed it. But the devil is in the details and I often screwed those up. Not a good place for engineers to screw up. I began to envision myself being in charge of something really important, messing up on a decimal place somewhere and killing 100 people. Honestly, that's how I started to see it. At that point, my engineering prospects were finished.

I still love drafting and I do a little here and there for people when they need it. I'm very good at machine design and with everyone I work with I make it clear that they need to be responsible for checking the details. These are usually small parts. Machined parts or small weldments. It's spotty enough that I don't get bored. But there's no way I could go back to doing it for a living.

While I was in high school, I had a few computer programming classes. I became obsessed with it, often staying after school until the lights were turned off and I was told by the custodian to go home. As a CAD driver (AutoCAD), I started fiddling around with AutoLISP. I became very good at it and wrote several extensive software packages. The most elaborate being a package that could take a 2D floor plan of a house and build the entire 3D framing model and generate a cut list, including doors and windows. Right after I finished that project, the company I did it for went out of business. I continued to do AutoLISP development and even consulted with Autodesk for a time. But that language has fallen out of favor (thank god). As weird as AutoLISP is, it gave me a good foundation for pursuing software development. I worked my way through everything from Borland Pradox's scripting language (which morphed into Delphi), VBA, VB6, C, C++ and a handful of other languages including PLC programming using ladder logic (very cool stuff), Postscript (programming in postscript is the biggest nightmare I've ever experienced), and a variety of markup languages.

Eventually, I ended up working for a software development team. Just sort of fell into that position. That's where I got my .NET experience. I learned a lot about how to manage a team of developers. Actually, I learned how NOT to do it since the team lead we had was one of the most incompetent people I've ever worked with. I applied with my current employer in '10 as a JavaScript developer (nevermind that my javascript development experience was practically nil). They hired me. The interesting part was that the original posting had a requirement for a college degree. In order to hire me, they had to modify the posting to read 'college degree or equivalent' and I had to reapply. That was a gimme.

I moved into my current position (same company) in March. The posting was 'Sr. Application Developer'. Again they had to modify the college requirement. I was hired. The day I started my manager left to another division. We were leaderless for a few months. When the new manager was hired, her understanding of my role was as the Team Supervisor. I didn't try to correct her. I saw this as an opportunity to prove my leadership skills. New territory for me, but I soon found it to my liking. I get to use my creativity in ways I never dreamed about. I don't have to be detail oriented, since the guys I hired are much better at that than I am. I enjoy the challenge of navigating the excruciating bureaucracy and removing barriers so that my team can get its work done. This leadership thing is appealing and I want to expand my influence. I think at right angles to the norm and so far my track record has proven that my ideas work.

The business I am in (energy trading) is very fluid right now. At our company, it grew without direction and I want to be a part of expelling the chaos that is holding us back from being successful. I can't do it where I am now and I can't get to where I want to be without a degree. I've had a couple mulligans, but it stops here. I can't say that I'm particularly fascinated in Finance, but I do believe I can do well with it. Sure, it's detail oriented. But it's a different context. Or maybe I'm just more mature. I see the purpose in this degree more so than engineering. Ultimately I see myself as a leader in some technical capacity. Hell, even with a finance degree I could probably swing an engineering management position somewhere if I wanted that.

In any case, I think this is the last chance. Otherwise, I may as well wait until my 60s when I can retire and go take some classes at the Landings School ;)
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Re: Career Advice

Postby Soñadora » Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:22 pm

Soñadora wrote:FD

Good points all.

and at the risk of being BV-esque... ;)

Despite evidence that I should do something else, when I was younger I envisioned myself as some sort of engineer. I started drafting when I was 10. My grandfather gave me an Alvin drafting kit for Christmas. I still have parts of that kit. I took drafting in high school and loved it. I was also into electronics by then. Out of high school, I enrolled in an electronics technology course in Florida. I was a B student. It was a fairly chaotic time of my life (early 20s) and I never finished. I gathered my resolve and entered University of Florida. I was in AF ROTC and began a pursuit of Aerospace Engineering. More personal chaos ensued and I dropped out. I ended up in MN in 1988. I again enrolled in a trade school in pursuit of an Architectural Drafting degree. After one summer as an intern with an architect, I quickly learned that my personality was a poor fit for the indentured servitude of an Architectural Draftsman/floor sweeper. I switched to Mechanical Design where I was finally able to draw curves. I was in my element. That was around the time when most places were switching over to CAD, so I had a good dose of both board drafting and CAD. I was an A student and I was surprised to find out that some of my work done in the early 90s is still being used as examples in the curriculum there.

After that, the plan was to enroll in the U of M and pursue a ME degree. But the summer after graduation I got a REAL job making $10/hr. I was finally able to eat something other than Ramen and I could even buy my own booze. Fat with cash, thoughts of going back to school faded and instead I went after chicks. Eventually finding the one I'm married to. Career wise, I muddled along from one mechanical drafting job to another. In more than one case, I made some costly mistakes with my drawings. This usually happened when a project would drag on for more than 3 months. Short attention span.

I continued to attempt getting a college degree. I took most of the prereqs for engineering, but it just wasn't working out. The math was elusive for me. I don't have enough left brain. I could do the work. I even enjoyed it. But the devil is in the details and I often screwed those up. Not a good place for engineers to screw up. I began to envision myself being in charge of something really important, messing up on a decimal place somewhere and killing 100 people. Honestly, that's how I started to see it. At that point, my engineering prospects were finished.

I still love drafting and I do a little here and there for people when they need it. I'm very good at machine design and with everyone I work with I make it clear that they need to be responsible for checking the details. These are usually small parts. Machined parts or small weldments. It's spotty enough that I don't get bored. But there's no way I could go back to doing it for a living.

While I was in high school, I had a few computer programming classes. I became obsessed with it, often staying after school until the lights were turned off and I was told by the custodian to go home. As a CAD driver (AutoCAD), I started fiddling around with AutoLISP. I became very good at it and wrote several extensive software packages. The most elaborate being a package that could take a 2D floor plan of a house and build the entire 3D framing model and generate a cut list, including doors and windows. Right after I finished that project, the company I did it for went out of business. I continued to do AutoLISP development and even consulted with Autodesk for a time. But that language has fallen out of favor (thank god). As weird as AutoLISP is, it gave me a good foundation for pursuing software development. I worked my way through everything from Borland Pradox's scripting language (which morphed into Delphi), VBA, VB6, C, C++ and a handful of other languages including PLC programming using ladder logic (very cool stuff), Postscript (programming in postscript is the biggest nightmare I've ever experienced), and a variety of markup languages.

Eventually, I ended up working for a software development team. Just sort of fell into that position. That's where I got my .NET experience. I learned a lot about how to manage a team of developers. Actually, I learned how NOT to do it since the team lead we had was one of the most incompetent people I've ever worked with. I applied with my current employer in '10 as a JavaScript developer (nevermind that my javascript development experience was practically nil). They hired me. The interesting part was that the original posting had a requirement for a college degree. In order to hire me, they had to modify the posting to read 'college degree or equivalent' and I had to reapply. That was a gimme.

I moved into my current position (same company) in March. The posting was 'Sr. Application Developer'. Again they had to modify the college requirement. I was hired. The day I started my manager left to another division. We were leaderless for a few months. When the new manager was hired, her understanding of my role was as the Team Supervisor. I didn't try to correct her. I saw this as an opportunity to prove my leadership skills. New territory for me, but I soon found it to my liking. I get to use my creativity in ways I never dreamed about. I don't have to be detail oriented, since the guys I hired are much better at that than I am. I enjoy the challenge of navigating the excruciating bureaucracy and removing barriers so that my team can get its work done. This leadership thing is appealing and I want to expand my influence. I think at right angles to the norm and so far my track record has proven that my ideas work.

The business I am in (energy trading) is very fluid right now. At our company, it grew without direction and I want to be a part of expelling the chaos that is holding us back from being successful. I can't do it where I am now and I can't get to where I want to be without a degree. I've had a couple mulligans, but it stops here. I can't say that I'm particularly fascinated in Finance, but I do believe I can do well with it. Sure, it's detail oriented. But it's a different context. Or maybe I'm just more mature. I see the purpose in this degree more so than engineering. Ultimately I see myself as a leader in some technical capacity. Hell, even with a finance degree I could probably swing an engineering management position somewhere if I wanted that.

In any case, I think this is the last chance. Otherwise, I may as well wait until my 60s when I can retire and go take some classes at the Landings School ;)
-Rick Beddoe

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