Personal Energy Independence

[BeauV]

Yup, MAYAN is only a 45min walk away. 300gal of water, plenty of diesel, a month of food. That’s also our Zombie Apocalypse exit. Plus 20 gal of gasoline to run the expedition for a while.

[LarryHoward]

Beau's math works for power outages that leave the hotels intact and not overbooked, but the benefit of the honda generator is the ability to use it in other situations. We are in earthquake country, so having a generator could be a big advantage. Combined with some solar capacity you could last a week or two, although comfort would not be a priority.

My problem has been keeping fresh gas, I tend to forget to change it out often enough and the jets in those honda carbs are so small they do not tolerate even middle aged hydrocarbons. My grand scheme is to head to the boat where I have fuel that lasts (diesel), heat, water and even a toilet that works. We could walk there in an hour or two. Food is an issue. I have a friend with the same boat plan, he bought a case or two of REI camping meals and stored them under a berth. I am thinking that and a sawed off 12 G will get me through the zombie apocalypse just fine.

This. We have had 2 significant outages. The ices storm that shut down about 1/2 of the county for up to 11 days and Hurricane Irene, where dawn brought no power for more than 100K folks. (>95% of the county) and were were properly in the last group to get power back after 8 days. Hotels within 30-40 miles were scarce both times and needed for those with trees in their living rooms. Local ones are normally booked during the work week and subject to the same system outages as the rest of the neighborhood. Having a generator kept us in the clean up and repair mode. Boat is the 3 season bail out and did sure end as a shower block when our oil fired hot water system failed and needed parts shipped in. It’s not so good when ice is on the creek.

The auto start generator is a convenience when power is out for a few hours or a day. It’s pretty nice for a longer outage, particularly since we are on a well. We have an underground propane tank that’s good for 2 weeks of “normal” use and up to 4 with significant conservation efforts.

[Ajax]

A hotel. You mean like, with other people?

I'll pass.

[Ajax]

In Larry's case there is also at least the possibility of getting a propane delivery a couple of weeks after a major storm when he's running low.

[Tigger]

We have a similar zombie apocalypse plan (or more likely, for the BIG one.) Meet at the boat. Assuming we're still alive, of course, and a tsunami has not laid waste to the marina (unlikely this far behind Vancouver Island, but ...) ... If it's really big, we may be marooned behind a collapsed bridge or two, but canned food, diesel, and 80 gal of fresh water provides time.

[BeauV]

Beau's math works for power outages that leave the hotels intact and not overbooked, but the benefit of the honda generator is the ability to use it in other situations. We are in earthquake country, so having a generator could be a big advantage. Combined with some solar capacity you could last a week or two, although comfort would not be a priority.

My problem has been keeping fresh gas, I tend to forget to change it out often enough and the jets in those honda carbs are so small they do not tolerate even middle aged hydrocarbons. My grand scheme is to head to the boat where I have fuel that lasts (diesel), heat, water and even a toilet that works. We could walk there in an hour or two. Food is an issue. I have a friend with the same boat plan, he bought a case or two of REI camping meals and stored them under a berth. I am thinking that and a sawed off 12 G will get me through the zombie apocalypse just fine.

This. We have had 2 significant outages. The ices storm that shut down about 1/2 of the county for up to 11 days and Hurricane Irene, where dawn brought no power for more than 100K folks. (>95% of the county) and were were properly in the last group to get power back after 8 days. Hotels within 30-40 miles were scarce both times and needed for those with trees in their living rooms. Local ones are normally booked during the work week and subject to the same system outages as the rest of the neighborhood. Having a generator kept us in the clean up and repair mode. Boat is the 3 season bail out and did sure end as a shower block when our oil fired hot water system failed and needed parts shipped in. It’s not so good when ice is on the creek.

The auto start generator is a convenience when power is out for a few hours or a day. It’s pretty nice for a longer outage, particularly since we are on a well. We have an underground propane tank that’s good for 2 weeks of “normal” use and up to 4 with significant conservation efforts.

I'm always amazed at how terrible east coast weather can be. Then I remember why a dude long ago sailed across the Atlantic, crossed over Central America on foot/horse, and took a look at the Pacific Ocean and named it "Pacific".

Larry, you certainly live in a place where this sort of weather is a LOT more common than around here. Of course, I will need to ask Tucky: "Why the heck anyone lives in Maine during the winter when they could live someplace else?" but I'm too polite

I believe this illustrates precisely why One Size Doesn't Fit All for any reasonably complex engineering solution. The financial analysis proves that, with the exception of a massive earthquake or zombie apocalypse where we live, the probability of a long-term (greater than 3 days) power outage is just about zero. We have no hurricanes, no ice storms, no etc.... As a result, the Dream Inn Hotel looks just fine with its swimming pool. Right on the beach, and yes Ajax there are other people, some are quite attractive while lounging by the pool. They also have a wonderful bar that hosts live jazz and folk music four nights a week. The perfect place to wait out a power failure.

[Ajax]

Are you kidding? PG&E cuts off power for days when the wind blows hard. Do you live in an area not affected by those outages?

Larry's right, though. Hotels in our area would be overwhelmed by people with trees in their living rooms, the elderly and perhaps people with special medical needs that require near-24 hour electricity (dialysis, etc). It's best that the able-bodied be able to shelter in place for as long as possible to make hotels available for those folks.

I'm not sure if our weather is severe or the grid is too fragile. Take your pick.

[BeauV]

Are you kidding? PG&E cuts off power for days when the wind blows hard. Do you live in an area not affected by those outages?

Larry's right, though. Hotels in our area would be overwhelmed by people with trees in their living rooms, the elderly and perhaps people with special medical needs that require near-24 hour electricity (dialysis, etc). It's best that the able-bodied be able to shelter in place for as long as possible to make hotels available for those folks.

I'm not sure if our weather is severe or the grid is too fragile. Take your pick.

Ajax, we do live in a place where they cut off the power on high wind days. Despite all the complaining, that number of days was 2.2 for last year and zero so far for this year. News articles are vastly overstating the situation because they live or die based on the DRAAAAMAAA of what they report. In reality, it's no big deal.

I'm betting that your weather is substantially worse than ours. We don't have ice storms, tropical storms, hurricanes (except by in 1939 when one hit S. Cal.), polar vortex, or tornadoes. (I don't think Maryland gets tornadoes.) We occasionally have bad fires, but those choosing to live in a high-risk area without taking appropriate precautions get what they deserve. Having lived in a high-fire zone for almost all of my childhood and half of my adult life, the precautions are relatively cheap and easy. But, they do require that one cut down trees and clear brush near your home. Folk who want a "woodsy" feel to their property are just asking for it. Keep in mind it only rains for about three months out of the year here.

Fire is a real risk, but only if you don't take appropriate action first. Here in the foothills of the Santa Cruz mountains, we cut down and hauled away five large dumpsters full of plants/trees within a month of buying our house, replaced the roof with a fire retardant treated material, removed various crumby sheds attached to the house and garage, and cleared pounds of dead leaves off the roof and out of the gutters.

The Admiral is on the Board of the local community. She had the local Fire Station Captain come out and inspect the entire neighborhood, we pass with flying colors. Many of our other neighbors got a lecture and a letter about the overgrown plants and proximity to their houses. They moaned and complained about not wanting to cut down stuff like Acacia and Eucalyptus trees, which burn like they are road flares. But, now that the Fire Department has written them up, they have to disclose it to their insurance company (Most didn't know that). That will almost certainly cause a cancelation unless they fix it. My tough little Admiral has made the entire community a LOT safer by forcing them to clear their brush. She's also probably not very popular with some of our neighbors, but tough. We won't see the community burn because of some clown who wants a hedge of highly flammable brush.

[H B]

Actually,. Beau...five confirmed in Maryland last week..however, they are rare enough it is a major event. This weather started in the Gulf and came north. I have personally seen the damage in SOMD from two in the last 15 years or so and we had a microburst strong enough to move my old shed around on its foundation (not anchored) a few years ago, that turned into a waterspout in the Chesapeake, if I recall. Last week, was straight line 50+ knots where we were, and you could see it coming. Lots of missing shingles all over the place, but not ONE from my leaky 20 year old roof that basically got denied a damage claim last year.
https://www.weather.gov/lwx/2020Feb07_Tornadoes

[Ajax]

Hey, just for fun- I've been completely "off grid" for 5 days! Solar and Powerwall only.

[LarryHoward]

Actually,. Beau...five confirmed in Maryland last week..however, they are rare enough it is a major event. This weather started in the Gulf and came north. I have personally seen the damage in SOMD from two in the last 15 years or so and we had a microburst strong enough to move my old shed around on its foundation (not anchored) a few years ago, that turned into a waterspout in the Chesapeake, if I recall. Last week, was straight line 50+ knots where we were, and you could see it coming. Lots of missing shingles all over the place, but not ONE from my leaky 20 year old roof that basically got denied a damage claim last year.
https://www.weather.gov/lwx/2020Feb07_Tornadoes

Keep in mind that the SE and Mid Atlantic are where the cold fronts coming in from the midwest intersect with warm humid air being sucked in from the Gulf of Mexico and lows spinning up along the Gulf Stream. Our frontal passages are sometimes exciting. In the summer when the cold fronts slow down, we get convective thunderstorms with "gusts to 60 knots and hail up to 1"" as the NWS likes to say. We get amused by left coast sailors who make pronouncements about not sailing when thunderstorms are forecast and stripping all canvas when winds in excess of 30 knots are possible.

[Ajax]

The pop-up cells are the worst. There is no forecasting the timing or location of these highly localized disturbances.
You simply sail around them, outrace them, or duck into an estuary and anchor quick-like-a-bunny. Sometimes the local WX radar will see the quickly enough and you can use your smartphone to determine their direction of travel.

Last year's Governor's Cup was plagued by these. The entire fleet got nailed by one that spanned the width of the Bay. Fortunately it was before sunset so we had a good visual and reefed just in time. Another one chased us down the bay for awhile during the evening. They didn't stop until we were south of the Patuxent River. Then the wind died.

[BeauV]

Actually,. Beau...five confirmed in Maryland last week..however, they are rare enough it is a major event. This weather started in the Gulf and came north. I have personally seen the damage in SOMD from two in the last 15 years or so and we had a microburst strong enough to move my old shed around on its foundation (not anchored) a few years ago, that turned into a waterspout in the Chesapeake, if I recall. Last week, was straight line 50+ knots where we were, and you could see it coming. Lots of missing shingles all over the place, but not ONE from my leaky 20 year old roof that basically got denied a damage claim last year.
https://www.weather.gov/lwx/2020Feb07_Tornadoes

Keep in mind that the SE and Mid Atlantic are where the cold fronts coming in from the midwest intersect with warm humid air being sucked in from the Gulf of Mexico and lows spinning up along the Gulf Stream. Our frontal passages are sometimes exciting. In the summer when the cold fronts slow down, we get convective thunderstorms with "gusts to 60 knots and hail up to 1"" as the NWS likes to say. We get amused by left coast sailors who make pronouncements about not sailing when thunderstorms are forecast and stripping all canvas when winds in excess of 30 knots are possible.

Well, on SF Bay and offshore near Santa Cruz one would basically stop sailing if 30k of wind was too much. That's the reason we use 65lb anchors and a length of chain just to anchor a racing mark. But, Larry, you're absolutely right about the left coast south of Pt. Conception. I remember being shocked the first time I raced my laser on SF Bay. I'd never seen weather like that except from shore in a storm and the locals were taking grandma out for a daysail.

I've been amazed that folks stay in tornado alley, which is a bit west of you all. Year after year I read about the massive loss of property and a few lives. But, then again, it's the "If it bleeds it leads" press doing the reporting. "Any SCARE for a buck."

[Slick470]

Beau, I grew up in tornado alley. I have huddled in school hallways up against the walls with my hands over my head. I have seen a tornado from a safe distance. I have watched clouds start to rotate above my head. I have seen the paths of destruction where the earth is scoured along paths with everything ripped to shreds. I have seen little towns almost wiped off the map.

Yeah they happen and they are scary and they cause massive damage, but I now live in hurricane country and I'd almost rather have the tornados. They pop up quickly, damage, kill, and are gone. You get a little bit of warning and you get to shelter. Maybe it's your day, maybe not. While the damage is severe, it rarely knocks out services for a large area, so restoring, power, water, gas, cleanup and rebuilding takes less time.

Hurricanes however draw the process out over days, weeks, months of uncertainty. They damage much greater areas and the recovery can take months or years.

I love living near the coast, but I think I'd take tornados over hurricanes.

[Ajax]

Good news- You got both!

[Slick470]

Good news- You got both!

Winning

[Tucky]

Larry, you certainly live in a place where this sort of weather is a LOT more common than around here. Of course, I will need to ask Tucky: "Why the heck anyone lives in Maine during the winter when they could live someplace else?" but I'm too polite

Just wandered in here, sorry to be slow. Cold wet show today, expected to drop below zero this weekend. Did I mention the locusts? As to why I live here, it's the only state in the US I want to live:-) I like weather, it reminds me who I am. The only season I'd like to be gone is spring mud season which is perfectly safe and perfectly awful. I really like the changing seasons and Maine has a cold enough winter and a warm enough summer to be just my place.

Any of you who have ever visited in summer know perfectly well why and if I could get you out on a frozen lake in the winter properly dressed you'd love that too. Please visit:-)

[BeauV]

Larry, you certainly live in a place where this sort of weather is a LOT more common than around here. Of course, I will need to ask Tucky: "Why the heck anyone lives in Maine during the winter when they could live someplace else?" but I'm too polite

Just wandered in here, sorry to be slow. Cold wet show today, expected to drop below zero this weekend. Did I mention the locusts? As to why I live here, it's the only state in the US I want to live:-) I like weather, it reminds me who I am. The only season I'd like to be gone is spring mud season which is perfectly safe and perfectly awful. I really like the changing seasons and Maine has a cold enough winter and a warm enough summer to be just my place.

Any of you who have ever visited in summer know perfectly well why and if I could get you out on a frozen lake in the winter properly dressed you'd love that too. Please visit:-)

Tucky, fair enough. You're right. I've never been to Maine in the winter. I did a number of trips to Wisconsin and Minnesota when the temp was around -10F. I didn't like it. But, you've hit the nail on the head when you say "properly dressed" because I ski all the time in WY in -10 to -15 F without a care.

[Chris Chesley]

As a former State of Mainer, born and raised, I fully understand Tucky's love of the seasons and what each of them have to offer. It was fun. But I confess, I like the 'grace' periods in the seasons of the PNW. There's no hard stop or hard start of a season and if you don't think about it too long, it almost seems like there's no real (Maine-type) winter at all or it only lasts a few days.

That being said, this one has been super wet and not a little bit dark. I've been missing the sun and this week's tease has been most welcome. At least in Maine, there are a lot more sunny days in winter that somewhat mitigates the cold and the ice.

[kdh]

the Dream Inn Hotel looks just fine with its swimming pool. Right on the beach, and yes Ajax there are other people, some are quite attractive while lounging by the pool. They also have a wonderful bar that hosts live jazz and folk music four nights a week. The perfect place to wait out a power failure.

Love the Dream Inn. Here's Adele striking a pose there. Dreamy!

[H B]

Just wandered in here, sorry to be slow. Cold wet show today, expected to drop below zero this weekend. Did I mention the locusts? As to why I live here, it's the only state in the US I want to live:-) I like weather, it reminds me who I am. The only season I'd like to be gone is spring mud season which is perfectly safe and perfectly awful. I really like the changing seasons and Maine has a cold enough winter and a warm enough summer to be just my place.

Any of you who have ever visited in summer know perfectly well why and if I could get you out on a frozen lake in the winter properly dressed you'd love that too. Please visit:-)

My wife is making me come back up there again. Right during the best time to be sailing the Chesapeake, in late September. Last time we were up there we made it as far north as Portland (of course visited the lighthouse) and came back down the coast on A1A/US1 to Boston for a wedding. Not sure where exactly we will be yet this time..maybe just NH visting her godson and Boston visiting her blood relatives. I hope it is still warm up there then..No reason to start dressing for autumn any earlier than necessary.

[Chris Chesley]

September is just about the best month of the year most anywhere in the US... okay, so mebbe not down in Hurricane alley, but, anywhere ELSE.

[Ajax]

Ah, here I am reviewing the winter electric bills:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jElYTUbRXQ

[Slick470]

panels and powerwall would have been nice today. Spent a couple hours cleaning the house in the dark due to a power outage while trying to prep the house for Ella's belated birthday party. Ended up firing up the gas jobsite style generator to finish vacuuming. Power came back on just before the first kid showed up, but was ready to pull an extension cord to the basement so they could still watch the planned movie.

[LarryHoward]

Interesting morning. Out in the hot tub with coffee talking with the jets off and heard the generator start up. It’s set for a 20 minute “exercise” and test” run every Saturday but it was early. Since the built in clock isn’t “navigational quality” I shrugged it off.

Few minutes later, we tried and the jets would not come on and the status led was blinking so we reset the disconnect breakers and all was well. We did notice the primary jet pump surging a bit on start up. Before we got out, I cycled the pumps and the primary 3/4 hp pump would start, bog a little and then come up to speed. Made a note to check filters later and came inside about 30 minutes ago and picked up the iPad. Just realized the generator is still running quietly in the background. Seems we have a power failure and the generator is doing its job and picked up the entire house (and hot tub). We had to check a clock to see if it was blinking to realize the power was off.

I do like my whole house generator with automatic transfer.

Edit. And as I hit post, the power came back, the generator went into cool down and shut off.

[Slick470]

very cool setup Larry. If we have an extended outage here in the burbs I have to pull out my jobsite style gas generator and run extension cords into the house. Not very convenient, and that doesn't even bring the fuel storage and treatment into the equation.

Thankfully we haven't had too many extended outages although I've used it for about an hour so far this year. If we lived out where you are, we'd be looking strongly at solar and/or a whole house genset.

[LarryHoward]

very cool setup Larry. If we have an extended outage here in the burbs I have to pull out my jobsite style gas generator and run extension cords into the house. Not very convenient, and that doesn't even bring the fuel storage and treatment into the equation.

Thankfully we haven't had too many extended outages although I've used it for about an hour so far this year. If we lived out where you are, we'd be looking strongly at solar and/or a whole house genset.

As we’ve talked before, we installed it in 2011 after moving here in 2010. After Irene, we were power off for 8 days and it was a godsend as no power means no water and makes staying for more than a day a non starter. We are at the end of about 5 miles of above ground lines and had talked to the neighbors about outages and the longest had been due to a major ice storm in 98-99 that shut things down for 11 days. We sized the fuel supply for 2 weeks with only reasonable rationing and installed prioritized load shedding auto disconnects to cycle both HVAC systems and the hot tub if needed. As it turns out, we haven’t had them kick off as normal usage hasn’t overloaded the 20 KW Generac. Those 8 days with things shut down while at work and only 1 of 2 HVAV systems running burned between a quarter and a third of a tank of propane (550 gallon filled to 80-85%) so it costs more than running the meter but less than hotels and losing freezers of food. We are comfortable that we can economize and get by for up to a month plus Lynne runs HR and payroll for a fuel company so we know the owner of the propane trucks.....

We are very happy with the investment. Overall, power has been more reliable over the last 10 years it would take a lot of powerwalls to keep things running “normally” for a week but I’d have to think hard if I had to make the choice today. The big gas tank runs the BBQ and fireplace “forever.” Just have a portable tank for the crab cooker but could plumb it to the larger supply if I wasn’t so lazy.

[kimbottles]

I have resisted the auto generator set up. So far the Honda Diesel 12KW on wheels with a very big industrial cord to power inlet near the house panel has worked very well.

When the power goes out around here I am usually happy to do a bit of super quiet shortwave/ham operating. It is amazing what even a few nearby houses put out in radio noise. (Operating from Derek’s remote cabin is amazingly quiet!)

We have a fairly simple house and often just light the oil lamps and enjoy outages.

BUT if it is cold Susan really likes heat. (I miss the wood stove we lost in the remodel.)

The power wall idea is quite intriguing. Will have to look into that sometime.

[BeauV]

Kim, I used to use a SSB rig to talk to my Dad from the S. Pacific. Once we got to Tahiti I turned it on to listen for Dad and it nearly deafened me in the earphones. I'd had the volume all the way up because there was ZERO background noise while we were at sea and out in the islands. What a racket near a city!

[Ajax]

Neighborhood blew a transformer this morning, around 7:30am. The Powerwall and solar kept us going until the transformer was replaced.

They were fast!