Daughter needs a new(er) car

[Jamie]

Sadly stonewalling and denial seems par the course for most car mfg.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v_j9Ct2jrQ&t=64s

[BeauV]

Minor thread drift:

My son and his girlfriend are off to the east coast via as many ski hills as they can find. They sold her old 1970s Volvo wagon and his old 1980s Audi wagon and bought a 2017 Impreza with 3k miles on it. So far, after a week on the road and one ski area, they are thrilled with the car. It'll live on the E. Coast someplace near Wash DC eventually. So far, they are thrilled with the car. For both of them, its their first nearly-new car ever.

[Tim Ford]

Not thread drift at all, Beau.

The older kid up in NH has an ancient AWD Impreza Sport, I think it is pre-2000. The damn thing refuses to die, with something like 185+ K on it. Her S.O., friends and family keep telling her to get rid of it, but it keeps starting in -10 degree temps and delivering her back and forth on the 20 mile commute she faces, daily.

So, yeah, not a bad ride!

Thanks for the heads-up on the Toyota lemon, Larry...I wonder if it's just specific to that model/year? My neighbor bought two Toyotas on the same day for his wife and daughter and swears by them, not at them (I mean swears by the cars, not his wife and daughter)

Irie, I like Edmunds, too! I think they used to provide very specific pricing info, including what the dealer pays for new cars, but I haven't spent time looking for that info yet. Hopefully it's still there. They also used to have a primer with 6 or 7 bullet points of advice for buyers...not sure that's still on their website. But thanks for the reminder!

[LarryHoward]

Not thread drift at all, Beau.

The older kid up in NH has an ancient AWD Impreza Sport, I think it is pre-2000. The damn thing refuses to die, with something like 185+ K on it. Her S.O., friends and family keep telling her to get rid of it, but it keeps starting in -10 degree temps and delivering her back and forth on the 20 mile commute she faces, daily.

So, yeah, not a bad ride!

Thanks for the heads-up on the Toyota lemon, Larry...I wonder if it's just specific to that model/year? My neighbor bought two Toyotas on the same day for his wife and daughter and swears by them, not at them (I mean swears by the cars, not his wife and daughter)

Irie, I like Edmunds, too! I think they used to provide very specific pricing info, including what the dealer pays for new cars, but I haven't spent time looking for that info yet. Hopefully it's still there. They also used to have a primer with 6 or 7 bullet points of advice for buyers...not sure that's still on their website. But thanks for the reminder!

Tim,

Overall, it runs and has moved literally tons of college stuff back and forth, served as a crew vehicle to, from and in Newport and otherwise done what you would expect a minivan to do. The multiple lies from the dealer and latent defects that are very expensive to repair have colored our experience. Not bad enough to dump the car but I expected better, given Toyota's reputation. The dash problems are common to a lot of Toyota vehicles (got the same warranty extension on teh Lexus but it hasn't cracked so far). The run flat wear issues appear to be associated with teh hard sidewalls and minor suspension geometry changes that occur as you drive (tire go up and down,etc. The lack of sidewall flex means the tread absorbs all that movement and scrubs itself away. I put standard michelins on it and bought AAA+ and moved the tire change out from 5,000 miles to 50,000. There is just no space. That seems common with all of their AWD Minivans from the mid 2000's. THe sliding door mechanisms are "value engineered" and wear out, many within a year or so of warranty expiration.

As I said, I know lots of folks that love their toyota sedans and SUVs. Just a lot more weaknesses in this minivan than I expected. I'd have to say it has been no better than the Dodge that preceeded it in that regard. It is our last minivan so we are just waiting for it to die. Residual value is too low to sell or trade at this point and Lynne likes the remote starter I put in it last year, particularly when it's 4 degrees outside.

[Chris Chesley]

To some degree, I suspect that any manufacturer produces some percentage of cars that are problem children. Sounds like you were the unfortunate recipient of one. I can say that my Toyota Highlander Hybrid has run flawlessly for 5 years. 28 mpg (or better) on the highway AND around town always, only done oil changes, new tires at 50k miles, no alignments, still on the first set of brake pads and rotors and still looks and feels like a new car. YMMV.

[LarryHoward]

To some degree, I suspect that any manufacturer produces some percentage of cars that are problem children. Sounds like you were the unfortunate recipient of one. I can say that my Toyota Highlander Hybrid has run flawlessly for 5 years. 28 mpg (or better) on the highway AND around town always, only done oil changes, new tires at 50k miles, no alignments, still on the first set of brake pads and rotors and still looks and feels like a new car. YMMV.

I would agree if the tire issue hadn’t come down to a class action suit and a consent agreement, the the subject of a global warranty extension, etc.

On the other hand, my first Lexus RX (upmarket Highlander) died from wood trauma at 110k miles when a 34” diameter oak came down during Irene and I’m still driving the second at 160,000 miles and 11 years old. It has had a couple of issues (AC evap coil and a vent motor) and had the extended dash watranty but no actual failure but other than that has performed pretty darn well.

I tend to purchase off lease “higher end” vehicles and drive them until they are donation candidates so I see the high miles, old age failures. The Sienna just had nuisance problems from nearly the beginning but we kept it because SWMBO wanted a “Mom truck” with AWD and the solution set was either a full size SUV or a Sienna AWD. Now that all the kids are grown, we won’t buy another minivan so the options open up.

[BeauV]

My JCW Mini has run-flat tires and eats up the rears. In my case, it's because the folks at Mini want the wonderful handling characteristics of running a car with the rear tires toed in a bit (1.4° if remember correctly). The car does drive GREAT! Which is why I still haven't been able to bring myself to sell the thing.

The run-flat tires certainly help with space saving in a small car, but in a big boat like our Tesla S I wish they'd just added a spare rather than yet-more-storage in the frunk.

BTW, in running on the track with the Mini, the Run-Flats are garbage compared to real race-tires. Not that a mini-van driver would care

[TheOffice]

I'm on my 4th BMW. 2 or 3 have had run-flats. No problems with abnormal wear. Just picked up an end of model Infiniti QX50. When the wife's Tesla 3 comes in I'll take that and sell the 128 convertible.
Traded the last BMW with 160,000 miles on it when the door locks failed and I had to climb out the passenger door. While the drive train is suppesed to be engineered for 350,000 miles, little shit starts breaking around 150,000.

[LarryHoward]

I'm on my 4th BMW. 2 or 3 have had run-flats. No problems with abnormal wear. Just picked up an end of model Infiniti QX50. When the wife's Tesla 3 comes in I'll take that and sell the 128 convertible.
Traded the last BMW with 160,000 miles on it when the door locks failed and I had to climb out the passenger door. While the drive train is suppesed to be engineered for 350,000 miles, little shit starts breaking around 150,000.

THat's why I believe it's a suspension dynamic that is causing the problem. Run flats do well in some cars but not others. On the AWD, the rear drive shaft caused them to move the exhaust and fuel tank from the location they occupy on the FWD version. That rippled down into pushing the spare out of its space. Run flats eliminated the need to find another location for the spare and I could not find a difference in suspension components (other than the carrier in the rear) between the FWD with standard tires and the AWD with run flats. Basically, they bolted them on but did not integrate them. A new set of $1,200 tires on a family box every 10,000 miles isn't acceptable in any scenario.

Beau, Why would you AX with the run flats? You need a set of RPF-01's shod with RE-71's if running a street tire class or Hoosiers if running track tires.

[JoeP]

My brother hated the run flats on his BMW Z4. They made the ride much to harsh. He swapped them out for some Michelin Pilot AS 4s and said it really helped.

[Olaf Hart]

No run flats on our 2013 CRV, even has a full sized spare.

Just changed out the original Michelin’s at 90,000km.

One more service at 100,000 km and it’s out of warranty, no complaints so far.

On the VW front, a friend recently gave back his Diesel Tiguan after they couldn’t tell him why it kept switching into go slow mode. It was the last couple of times it happened on the freeway in front of a semi trailer that made him give up.

We currently have two VW vans in our car park, a 98 petrol four cylinder that we used to own and gave to my brother as a gig van for his Irish music band. He moved to Ireland and gave it back. It cost us $1k to help when we moved to Tassie, and refuses to die.

The other a fully fitted out 2007 diesel all leather limo van is a complete POS, and I still need to replace the DPF or dump it. The engine comes from the period where they all used Diesel Particulate Filters, but didn’t have urea injection like they do now. Reminds me of the early Catalytic Converter cars.

[BeauV]

Larry,

I was at a Morgan Club autocross with the mini (Morgan wasn't running). After all the old wooden cars ran, they let folks run around the course with whatever they had brought. One guy did it in a Ford Econoline 350 Super Duty with dual rear tires, which was one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. My little JCW Mini was the fastest "street car" around the course, primarily because of the short well base and gearing that was just right for almost the entire course in 2nd gear. (Only hit first twice on hairpins and got to use the handbrake on those.)

If I was going to do this more than a few times I wouldn't own a convertible and would certainly have real race-tires.

That said, sailing is bad enough for eating money. Race cars are right up there with airplanes if you do it right.

[LarryHoward]

Larry,


That said, sailing is bad enough for eating money. Race cars are right up there with airplanes if you do it right.

How well I know. Back in the day, I autocrossed a modified Porsche. Expensive mods to an expensive car. Was the regional champ but it sucked $$$. When my son started autocrossing, he had all sorts of “wants” to make the car quicker but I held firm on running a stock, 200 tread wear DOT tire class. Told him you don’t modify your daily driver unless you can write a check to replace it on Monday morning. He won the street class championship a couple of times. Now that he’s out of college and employed, he’s gettting the itch again but I think he’s shooting for the SCCA Nationals this year in stock class before looking to partner in a full up modified car in the future.

Boys and toys.

[kimbottles]

Larry, Race cars are right up there with airplanes if you do it right.

Ask the guy who just had his airplane painted, (no it is not me, I don’t own an airplane.)

(We will see if he owns up to it and comments.)

[Tim Ford]

Must be an Oriole fan, with those colors! Mawn Oh'S!

[Charlie]

I'd think painting an airplane is easier/cheaper than painting a boat. No antifouling needed. Do you need fancy 2-part LP?

Unless there's some special lighter-than-air paint required.

[Tucky]

I believe Awlgrip was developed for aluminum planes, hence the awl.

[Panope]

I'd think painting an airplane is easier/cheaper than painting a boat. No antifouling needed. Do you need fancy 2-part LP?

Unless there's some special lighter-than-air paint required.

I think painting planes is the worst.

A proper job starts with stripping ALL the old paint off. This must be done with chemical strippers as coarse sanding will destroy (button head) rivets and thin the skins. Abrasive blasting is impossible as the thin metal tends to "walk" or deform. Chemical stripping is a snap on old single part lacquers and enamels but more resent paint is likely to be 2-part. This stuff requires multiple applications of stripper and endless scraping and brushing around umpteen zillion rivet heads.

Once the paint has been removed, you now have to (somehow) clean all the stripper that has migrated in to the lapped sheet metal seams. I actually do not know how to do this effectively, only that very often it is not done properly. The result is the slow failure (bubbling) of the paint near seams.

Now that the paint is stripped and the stripper is COMPLETELY removed, the metal needs to be prepped for paint. Again, blasting (the absolute best prep for aluminum) is forbidden so chemical cleaning/etching is required (alumaprep/alodine). This must be done very thoroughly followed by immediate drying of the entire plane, followed by immediate application of a primer coat (before the aluminum oxidizes. (The EPA frowns upon Alodine being rinsed into nature so this step has to be done on the sly, or over a proper waste water catchment).

The actual painting is just like automobile finishing (spraying) except for the need to shoot the "bottom" of everything (spraying "up"), the goddamn rivets which tend to cause runs, and the near universal use of multiple colors.

Oh ya, I forgot to mention that to do a truly premium job, numerous parts should be removed, stripped, prepped, and painted separately: Doors, wing tips, tail cone, ailerons, flaps, elevators, rudders, trim tabs, gear doors, antennas, lights, engine cowlings, spinners, wheel pants, many fairings, and dozens of access/inspection covers. In addition to being very time consuming, this is problematic if stripes or color transitions occur on a removed part. If you have gone to the trouble of doing all that you might as well pull all the Plexiglas, rubber seals and chafe guard stripping, and replace

Steve

[BeauV]

Steve,

Why does anyone paint an alloy plane??? I remember the CEO of American Airlines once saying how many millions they saved by NOT painting their airplanes. He listed weight of the paint, time the plane was out of service, and all the stuff you've listed above. So......

Why does anyone paint an alloy plane??

B

[kimbottles]

Steve,

Why does anyone paint an alloy plane??? I remember the CEO of American Airlines once saying how many millions they saved by NOT painting their airplanes. He listed weight of the paint, time the plane was out of service, and all the stuff you've listed above. So......

Why does anyone paint an alloy plane??

B

Looks......

[Panope]

Steve,

Why does anyone paint an alloy plane??? I remember the CEO of American Airlines once saying how many millions they saved by NOT painting their airplanes. He listed weight of the paint, time the plane was out of service, and all the stuff you've listed above. So......

Why does anyone paint an alloy plane??

B

Same reason the the boating world switched from (vastly superior) bronze hardware to Stainless Steel. People like shinny stuff.

Everybody loves a well polished raw aluminum airplane (or airstream), but keeping a working plane polished is an immense amount of work.

If I had an unpainted aluminum plane, I would let it go dull and just fly the shit out of it.

Steve

[BeauV]

Steve,

I guess I get that answer. You're certainly right about people going from really good bronze to stainless that has crevice corrosion problems.

BTW, MAYAN is not only all bronze stuff but we NEVER EVER EVER polish it! I love the color of corroded bronze. We pulled in next to another "classic" and the paid crew were polishing all the bronze after the first day of sailing. The owner went out that day about 10 minutes after all the polishing was over and sailed the boat hard on SF Bay. The bronze was turning green as he was pulling into the dock. I could hear the groans from the pro crew while I was down below in the next slip. I've no idea why folks do these silly things.

I'm with you, leave it bare and fly/sail the shit out of it.

[Tigger]

1 data point does not make for much of a statistical framework, but current car is a 2003 Honda Civic sedan with well over 250,000 km and, seemingly, lots of life left in it. Great car in the snow.

Last time I was in I mused about a newer model. Mechanic at Honda told me I was nuts--the car has YEARS left--why would I want a new one? He has a point ...

[Tim Ford]

Thanks, good advice, Tigger.

With regard to the older Honda's, back in the early 70's, my father was driving a big old Pontiac Grand Prix, the one with the long hood/short deck which introduced a proper driver's "cockpit" as a marketing gimmick. Cool car with a 400 CID 8 and a 4 barrel carb. Handled pretty well perhaps a bit of understeer.

69ponty GP.jpg

While I was out of town, he traded in the beast for a tiny Honda...I think this was pre-civic. Had a two-speed torque converter, little transverse mounted 4 cyl. FWD. I got home and saw the car in the driveway and gave my father the 70's equivalent of WTF???? He said, "take it for a drive!"

I did, it was a blast.

72civic.jpg

After about 8 years, he passed the car on to me. It was a wreck, rusted out, my father took terrible care of cars. But: it still ran like a demon.

Two years later, I got back from the Middle East and went to get the car. I was out of the country for 14 months and the car was under a tarp in my grandfather's back yard. Pulled the tarp off under a ton of leaves, climbed into the drivers seat and said, what the heck, I'll see if the battery has any juice in it.

Turned the key and the engine fired up instantly! I mean, it was as if the thing had been driven an hour ago, not 14 months.

I drove it for another 2 years, including whilst courting my wife...the doors were held shut with bungie cords GOOD TIMES!

[Rob McAlpine]

There is danger in ignorance. I've seen people use brass below the waterline, thinking brass and bronze are pretty much the same, which they aren't. There was a time when our robotics competition rules precluded manufactured stuff, such as ball bearings, and I would have the kids machine and polish bushings out of bronze.

Post apocalypse, there will only be cockroaches and small Hondas and Toyotas. My daughters high school car, a V6 Camry, would stull be going strong, I'm sure, if I hadn't made the mistake of stopping at a red light. Not yellow, red. A few moments later the driver of the Suburban that rear-ended me jumped out yelling "why'd you stop?"

[Ish]

I'm taking my 1991 Celica GTS hatchback in for an oil change and tire rotation tomorrow. 291,000 km on it, still fun to drive, and I can use it like a pickup truck.

[BeauV]

I got 180,000 miles from my first suburban (3/4 ton 350 v8) 1978 model
I got 150,000 miles from my second suburban (1/2 ton 350 v8) 1992 model
I got 85,000 miles from my third one and that was it. 2004 model
I didn't buy another one.

I have no idea why Chevy destroyed one one of the best vehicles ever... It was true that the '86 was basically a 3/4 ton pickup with a different body. As a result it rode like shit but was utterly unstoppable. I'm certain there is still a market for such a vehicle, but now the Suburban is tarted up like a pimp-mobile and sold as an Escalade. I guess I should have known that would be the end of the breed.

Last week I drove a Ford Explorer for over 1,200 miles in a week. It was a MUCH better vehicle than a Suburban. Independent rear suspension, brakes that work all the time rather than occasionally, and seriously good handling. It was piss-poor at deep snow (my '78 burb would have beaten it easily) but almost no one cares about that. Ford is going to slowly but surely destroy the Suburban/Tahoe with the Explorer and Excursion. Something I never would have believed, but GM seems to have it head up its A** (Tail Pipe).

Those early Hondas were a HOOT!! I loved driving my x-girlfriends way back in the day.

[Jamie]

Thanks, good advice, Tigger.

With regard to the older Honda's, back in the early 70's, my father was driving a big old Pontiac Grand Prix, the one with the long hood/short deck which introduced a proper driver's "cockpit" as a marketing gimmick. Cool car with a 400 CID 8 and a 4 barrel carb. Handled pretty well perhaps a bit of understeer.

69ponty GP.jpg

While I was out of town, he traded in the beast for a tiny Honda...I think this was pre-civic. Had a two-speed torque converter, little transverse mounted 4 cyl. FWD. I got home and saw the car in the driveway and gave my father the 70's equivalent of WTF???? He said, "take it for a drive!"

I did, it was a blast.

72civic.jpg

After about 8 years, he passed the car on to me. It was a wreck, rusted out, my father took terrible care of cars. But: it still ran like a demon.

Two years later, I got back from the Middle East and went to get the car. I was out of the country for 14 months and the car was under a tarp in my grandfather's back yard. Pulled the tarp off under a ton of leaves, climbed into the drivers seat and said, what the heck, I'll see if the battery has any juice in it.

Turned the key and the engine fired up instantly! I mean, it was as if the thing had been driven an hour ago, not 14 months.

I drove it for another 2 years, including whilst courting my wife...the doors were held shut with bungie cords GOOD TIMES!

When you car topped a Blue Jay or 420 on those little CVVCs, it made for some interesting highway travel.

[Ish]

Those early Hondas were a HOOT!! I loved driving my x-girlfriends way back in the day.

You had more than one girlfriend? I tried to keep them in series instead of parallel.

[LarryHoward]

Thanks, good advice, Tigger.

With regard to the older Honda's, back in the early 70's, my father was driving a big old Pontiac Grand Prix, the one with the long hood/short deck which introduced a proper driver's "cockpit" as a marketing gimmick. Cool car with a 400 CID 8 and a 4 barrel carb. Handled pretty well perhaps a bit of understeer.

69ponty GP.jpg

While I was out of town, he traded in the beast for a tiny Honda...I think this was pre-civic. Had a two-speed torque converter, little transverse mounted 4 cyl. FWD. I got home and saw the car in the driveway and gave my father the 70's equivalent of WTF???? He said, "take it for a drive!"

I did, it was a blast.

72civic.jpg

After about 8 years, he passed the car on to me. It was a wreck, rusted out, my father took terrible care of cars. But: it still ran like a demon.

Two years later, I got back from the Middle East and went to get the car. I was out of the country for 14 months and the car was under a tarp in my grandfather's back yard. Pulled the tarp off under a ton of leaves, climbed into the drivers seat and said, what the heck, I'll see if the battery has any juice in it.

Turned the key and the engine fired up instantly! I mean, it was as if the thing had been driven an hour ago, not 14 months.

I drove it for another 2 years, including whilst courting my wife...the doors were held shut with bungie cords GOOD TIMES!

When you car topped a Blue Jay or 420 on those little CVVCs, it made for some interesting highway travel.

Sea Snark on an AH Sprite with long hair in Dallas. 1970. Used braces from the rear bumper and the windshield frame. Only worked with the top in the truck. Create significant attention.