Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby Orestes Munn » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:57 am

kdh wrote:
BeauV wrote:All of this is making the problem really interesting.

Really interesting and really hard. We tend to think that if something's easy for for us to do that it's easy to program.

We have all sorts of cognitive biases that even simple systematic systems can fix, but our visual and pattern recognition systems are amazing.

We have a huge and densely interconnected store of experience with which to exert top-down control on sensation and the interpretation of novel patterns of input. No machine has that. We are also able to make inferences based on very abstract rules. Training a machine on a finite set of cases over a relatively short time can produce super-human results on fairly specialized discriminations, but I don't think AI is ready for the degree of chaos and variability on the roads yet. On the other hand, neither are many people.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby TheOffice » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:11 am

Driving is an endless series of time/speed/distance calculations based on observed data.

I'm just hoping that the technology advances more quickly than my skills deteriorate! I'm 61, so I should be capable for another 10 years (minimum). the tech should advance more quickly than that. In the meantime, I prepping to move my office so I don't have to drive on the Beltway and Route 50 every day.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby Orestes Munn » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:23 am

TheOffice wrote:Driving is an endless series of time/speed/distance calculations based on observed data.

That's a lot of it and happens to be the part that deteriorates the most noticeably with age, but if it were all there was, we'd all be driving around reading the paper. You have to know what the hell you're looking at and that's actually a much more difficult problem.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:58 am

Well now, our local newspaper just provided a description of a company I've been watching under NDA. (I don't have any bus. relationship with these guys.) They are going right after the problem posed above.

https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/2018/10/01/self-driving-sensor-startup-led-by-apple-veterans-comes-out-of-stealth/
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:20 pm

OM,

I completely agree, with some of what you've said. Way back when Moses was in diapers I was on the board of a company (Quintus PROLOG) which attempted AI based on declarative statements of formal logic. For reasons that appear obvious now, those declarations were entirely insufficient for this sort of problem. Fortunately, no one believed that this sort of problem was even remotely possible (not really, we all talked about it a lot) so the only thing Quintus software got applied to was getting the green door on the green Buick as it went down the factory line. We were quite good at that.

The breakthrough came when we started training AI software with massive numbers of real-world experiences. I've fooled around a little with trying to predict hurricane tracks by simply training the software with every piece of data I can find for every hurricane we have seen. The darned thing got pretty damn good, but only about 80% of what a human aided by computers can do. I think my hurricane test is a pretty accurate assessment of where we are: Humans augmented by AI software are the best solution we've found. Stan has trained a system to find and predict weather patterns which will do things like sweep from NY to Ireland with one front. Thus, the repeated Transatlantic records.

Returning to your comment about resolving time/distance/intercept etc... in real time, there is obviously a terrific Darwinian force that would select for that. Hunting. Imagine what a peregrine falcon does in its brain as it dives towards a bird at over 200 MPH! I've watched the falcons near our old office nail a fast moving pigeon and have read that the visual system within a falcon can spot a small bird (dinner) from over 3/4 of a mile away, once it moves. That's a tip, to my mind, it moved. Note also that the peregrine has over 80% of its brain dedicated to its visual system, which makes sense when you're diving at a pigeon that is flying 20' above the ground and your'e going 200+ MPH straight down! Make a mistake and you hit the dirt, mistake the other way and you miss dinner. There is some evidence that the falcon estimates the weight of the bird it is about to strike and adjust speed accordingly, counting on the mass of the bird it will impact to slow its decent. Falcons can withstand over 30G impacts, which is how they actually kill their prey, they ram it. The talons are only there to keep the prey from falling to Earth after the strike. There are witnesses who have seen peregrine miss a strike and the falcon is often killed by the impact with the ground below. Darwin at work.

Back to humans v cars. I strongly believe that our visual systems are more highly tuned to hunting activities than we realize. This is why we can catch a baseball on the run, return a 100 MPH serve in tennis, etc... We are not only calculating the intercept, we're controlling our legs, hands, and everything else to deliver the death blow to that pesky tennis ball. I strongly believe that this is why we can drive cars, especially at high speeds, and why we are so inept at it when we've put our visual systems to work looking at a phone screen. To drive well, one must notice the movement of everything in the visual field and track the changes. Looking at a phone stops all that and it takes our visual systems numerous seconds, if not a minute, to catch up and re-establish situational awareness.

For these reasons, I think that driving a car well (which customers REALLY want us to do) will be one of the toughest tests for AI. Unlike financial calculations about stock prices or predicting the path of hurricanes, driving matches the computer up against one of the things which humans (and lots of other predators) do REALLY well. That's what makes this effort so interesting - it's really hard!
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby Orestes Munn » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:49 pm

Beau,

My point was only that the human brain is superbly developed to build categorical structures from continuous data, in order to interpret the world and generate appropriate behavioral responses. A famous example is our ability to hear "phonemes" (speech sounds that map onto language) where no such physical distinctions exist and we are actually hard wired for that. AI can do categorization well where the set of relevant measures in the input stream and then number of sorting categories are relatively small. For instance, it's pretty clear that it will eventually put radiologists and anatomical pathologists out of business, maybe because those are not things that humans are really good at anyway. Can it think categorically in more variable and dynamic settings, like an urban street, where, I would argue, humans are fantastic? Of course, but it's not as easy as some people think and it may be very hard to meet an acceptable safety standard. Weather prediction is a good example and nowhere near accurate enough for traffic. Fortunately, most drivers are far better at predicting the outcome of street situations than computer-aided experts are at hurricane tracks.

Of course, all of this has nothing to do with doing physics on the fly, which is child's play by comparison.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby Ken Heaton (Salazar) » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:38 pm

BeauV wrote:Finally, we're learning that a lot of processing of the image goes on within the retina and optic nerve, the brain sees a pre-processed image, and your conscious mind sees a highly preprocessed image. The old saying: "I'll believe it when I see it." is probably exactly backwards. It should be "I'll see it when I believe it." People quite literally can't see things they don't believe exist or can happen.

If I may introduce a lighter note, this explanation starts to remind me of 'someone else's problem' or SEP.

In Douglas Adams's 1982 novel Life, the Universe and Everything (in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy comedy science fiction series), the character Ford Prefect says,
An SEP is something we can't see, or don't see, or our brain doesn't let us see, because we think that it's somebody else's problem. That’s what SEP means. Somebody Else’s Problem. The brain just edits it out, it's like a blind spot.

The narration then explains:
The Somebody Else's Problem field... relies on people's natural predisposition not to see anything they don't want to, weren't expecting, or can't explain.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby kdh » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:27 pm

BeauV wrote:"I'll see it when I believe it." People quite literally can't see things they don't believe exist or can happen.


We probabilists/statisticians yawn and think, "right, a Bayesian prior." Enough evidence though and it's seen.

Ken Heaton (Salazar) wrote:The Somebody Else's Problem field... relies on people's natural predisposition not to see anything they don't want to, weren't expecting, or can't explain.


We as humans have learned to look for a story: we analyze our surroundings and are content when what we sense is consistent with the story, are alarmed otherwise. For us sailors it's the instinct that an unusual sound from the boat should be well heeded. The natural selection associated with protecting ourselves from danger provides an obvious source of this behavior.

But it leads to stupid shit like thinking Kavanaugh is other than a Neanderthal (sorry, couldn't help myself).
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby TheOffice » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:08 pm

From CNN

The Tesla Model 3 is now the bestselling luxury car in America. By a lot. ...

To put the Model 3's success in perspective, Tesla sold more Model 3s than GM sold Cadillacs or Buicks -- of any model. The Model 3 also outsold all Honda Acuras and Ford's Lincolns and Tesla sold more Model 3s than Lexus, BMW, Mercedes and Audi sold cars (when including SUVs, the big four luxury makers each outsold the Model 3).
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:34 pm

There are Model3s everywhere around here! On my latest drive from LA to Santa Cruz I counted 34, which is crazy as the road was pretty empty.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:56 pm

Bill Lee let me know he'd found some tear-down info on the Tesla products and followed up that conversation aboard MAYAN with an email containing the links. They are really well done and worth reading if you'd like to understand more about what is really good or bad about the Tesla Model 3. The first tear down report is an intermediate report with the second link being a much more serious analysis of profitability.

It's interesting to note that between the two reports the folks doing the analysis had to "eat crow" about the profitability, now claiming that the Model 3 has about a 30% gross profit margin up a LONG way from the breakeven they talk about in the first report.

HERE is the Model 3 tear down.

[urlhttps://electrek.co/2018/07/16/tesla-model-3-teardown-profitability/]HERE[/url] is the profitability analysis.

It's also interesting to note that the person putting the Munro analysis on their web site keeps trying to second guess the analysis without providing a single bit of hard evidence of their own.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby LarryHoward » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:11 pm

Was at an autocross yesterday. 2 Model 3’s and a Model X came to play. As you would expect, quick in a straight line but average cornering. Somewhat shocking to hear tire scrub and a quiet whine as the only sound as they went by.

In “real autocross car” terms, the last AX of the season saw my son in a tie for class champion, even after tiebreakers were applied. Same points and after 1 throw out, an even split of 1’s and 2’s between two drivers. Not too bad for tires that gave him 3 full seasons. As has become common, the two of them were quicker than the winners in the next 3 classes rated faster.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:44 pm

Larry, were the Model 3s the "performance" version?? I'm starting to hear really good things about that version of the 3. A Model S has no business whatsoever on an autocross track. It is a lovely comfortable heavy sedan. My 1600cc souped up '61 VW bug would beat it around a typical autocross course.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby LarryHoward » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:17 pm

BeauV wrote:Larry, were the Model 3s the "performance" version?? I'm starting to hear really good things about that version of the 3. A Model S has no business whatsoever on an autocross track. It is a lovely comfortable heavy sedan. My 1600cc souped up '61 VW bug would beat it around a typical autocross course.


One was a performance version. One the 2wd. The perf was impressive for a silent sedan but still heavy. The perf was about 1 sec quicker than the standard on a 1 minute course and even with a street tire stock Celica and a second slower than my son in his stock 2008 Civic SI with old hard tires. The X was a hoot. Apparently a visiting highly respected driver from out of town and the X was a rental. He said it had impressive acceleration but that was about it. He ghost registered it as something else and ran “non comp” so it doesn’t show in the results (probably smart for a rent-a-racer).

Agree on the S. We did have an old Caddy Sedan De Ville one time that got a standing ovation when he ran with 5 (helmeted and belted in) passengers and the radio blaring classic rock.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby JoeP » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:04 pm

As we used to say back in the days of the GT 350H, nothing races like a rental. A friend bought one just out of high school (!) and it sure was a tired old horse. He brought it back to better than new. Loved small blocks and really had the 289 running sweet. He and another member of the local Shelby club who had a GT 500 KR had a rivalry for quickest car and my friend won frequently at the "tideflats raceway" on Saturday nights.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:09 am

One of my most cherished set of memories are those of my day tossing me into a rental Shelby GT350H fresh from Hertz and driving out to the race track. Great times!!
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby TheOffice » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:06 pm

Perhaps the pimped out Model S would be better suited:

https://electrek.co/2018/10/30/unplugge ... -modified/
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby LarryHoward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:22 pm

TheOffice wrote:Perhaps the pimped out Model S would be better suited:

https://electrek.co/2018/10/30/unplugge ... -modified/


Pretty cool and "only" $200K.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:24 pm

I really think that trying to make a "performance car" out of a Tesla S is a lot like trying to make a Rolls Silver Shadow a performance car. It was never designed for that, and despite a crazy power motor the suspension and over all weight make it a silly idea. Note that in the "upgrades" most of them are for Show and not for Go.

The Model 3 is a different matter. That could be a lovely toss-able sport sedan with a bit of suspension tuning and some output profiles to the batteries.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby LarryHoward » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:32 pm

BeauV wrote:I really think that trying to make a "performance car" out of a Tesla S is a lot like trying to make a Rolls Silver Shadow a performance car. It was never designed for that, and despite a crazy power motor the suspension and over all weight make it a silly idea. Note that in the "upgrades" most of them are for Show and not for Go.

The Model 3 is a different matter. That could be a lovely toss-able sport sedan with a bit of suspension tuning and some output profiles to the batteries.


You should do it.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby kimbottles » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:05 pm

BeauV wrote:……………trying to make a "performance car" out of a Tesla S is a lot like trying to make a Rolls Silver Shadow a performance car…………….


Oh yeah?

https://goo.gl/images/GBSHr8
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:21 am

kimbottles wrote:
BeauV wrote:……………trying to make a "performance car" out of a Tesla S is a lot like trying to make a Rolls Silver Shadow a performance car…………….


Oh yeah?

https://goo.gl/images/GBSHr8


Yeah!! Now THAAAT is what I’m talkin’ ‘bout!
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:22 am

LarryHoward wrote:
BeauV wrote:I really think that trying to make a "performance car" out of a Tesla S is a lot like trying to make a Rolls Silver Shadow a performance car. It was never designed for that, and despite a crazy power motor the suspension and over all weight make it a silly idea. Note that in the "upgrades" most of them are for Show and not for Go.

The Model 3 is a different matter. That could be a lovely toss-able sport sedan with a bit of suspension tuning and some output profiles to the batteries.


You should do it.


I have enough on my hands just finishing this round of work on MAYAN.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby TheOffice » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:56 pm

How about the passenger version of this:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/vw-i ... auto-show/
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby TheOffice » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:29 pm

“If a man must be obsessed by something,” E.B. White once wrote, “I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most.”

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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby Olaf Hart » Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:47 pm




The body has been Bangeled ...
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby LarryHoward » Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:06 pm

Olaf Hart wrote:



The body has been Bangeled ...


Bangles?

I reckon it’s pretty nice looking.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby BeauV » Wed Nov 28, 2018 8:12 pm

LarryHoward wrote:
Olaf Hart wrote:



The body has been Bangeled ...


Bangles?

I reckon it’s pretty nice looking.


Chris Bangle is an American who rose to the be the head of BMW design (read more here) He directed the design of a number of BMW models which were viewed by many of us who adored BMW cars as TERRIBLE.

His amazing faux pas include the Z8 (basically a heavy Corvette built by BMW), the Z3 with lumps and bumps only a mother could love, and the absolute terribly designed 650i and the 750i which had serious Bangle Butt problems with their trunk lids. (They looked as though someone has kicked the car in the ass.)

Singlehandedly, Bangle took BMW car sales down by double digits in the US. The drive train and interior bits were the same, but the cars were so ugly they didn't sell. Eventually, Bangle was kicked up stairs to the management board where he wasn't allowed to be in charge of anything. This is the German equivalent to the Japanese technique of giving a failing executive a "window office" which has no phone or computer.

The last BMW my wife and I ever bought was a pre-Bangle car - he certain caused us to change vendors.
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Re: Electric Car Prediction - Whatdayathing???

Postby Olaf Hart » Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:12 am

I think Bangle did the Z4 Beau, my wife’s Z3 was a smooth car, the last BMW she ever owned.

When she sold hers I also sold my 86 model 635csi, we were moving to Tassie to live in the country and I didn’t want it to live out it’s last years stored in a barn.

Neither of us could bring ourselves to consider a current model car.
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