Guilty food pleasures

[Tim OConnell]

If you want to get real fancy, look at how chaos theory describes flow in vascular systems.
I reckon the big story in the future will be about vessel damage caused by turbulent flow, at bifurcation and irregularities in vessels.
No real evidence yet, but that's where my money is.

Seems logical since it happens everywhere a fluid flows.

Speaking of there coming a time when it's not worth it, this Chinese fellow has just had his 127th birthday. It's a bit late for Oil of Olay

127yr old chinese man in 2012.jpg

[BeauV]

Olaf,

You may be on to something there, I'll have to ponder this more. Years ago I helped this company get started to use computational fluid dynamics to accurately model the flow (including turbulent flow) inside of the cardio-vascular system. ( http://heartflow.com/) Right now, they're focused on the coronary arteries, but all of this works perfectly in the rest of the body. Someday, once the company is steaming along making money, they'll dig back into peripheral arterial disease and some of the tricky places like the kidneys.

BTW, I remain amazed that many folks don't seem to adequately notice that stenosis (aka: plaque and blockages for the non-medical) seems to occur in the bits of people that don't move - their core (renal/coronary/pulmonary arteries). Stenosis only seems to emerge in the peripheral arteries once people get slowed down enough to stop moving. It's probably an overly simplistic view, but it seems that physical movement and increased flow rates help a lot to keep stenosis at bay.

BV

[Orestes Munn]

Actually, the role of turbulent flow in damaging the lining of arteries, the first step in plaque formation, has been recognized for decades, but there is clearly much more to it, since that's a universal condition.

No arteries in the body move more than the vessels of the heart and the mobile carotid and vertebral arteries in the neck are among the most vulnerable. Plenty of people have symptomatic problems in leg arteries, too. Symptomatic atheromatous disease in the pulmonary circulation is so rare I've never even heard of it. Maybe Olaf has.

[BeauV]

Well, you guys are way beyond my experience level. I'd love to learn more.

Beau

[Orestes Munn]

Well, you guys are way beyond my experience level. I'd love to learn more.

Beau

Kind of like me and you guys and sailing.

[Olaf Hart]

Beau, my comments about turbulence were prompted by your comments on bypass and stent blockage. These are classic examples of an intervention which will increase turbulence, so it is no surprise that they have a limited useful life.

The chaos mathematics people say they can design a mammalian vascular system, or the vascular system on a leaf, if they design to maximise laminar flow and specify volumes and pressures. It would appear those natural systems have evolved to avoid turbulent flow.

It is possible to effectively block a vessel if there is enough turbulence, the resistance to flow increases exponentially.
It is also easier to block smaller vessels. The assumption that we have a clot or a plaque blocking a vessel leading to organ damage is not necessarily correct.

Just my thoughts, I once worked with a mathematics prof who was really interested in health care systems.

[JoeP]

Wow, I'm sure glad Rick started this forum. It's great to hear you guys talk about this stuff, even if it's not about boats. I never realized turbulent flow caused irritation in the vascular system leading to plaque build up, but it makes sense.

[JoeP]

Wow, I'm sure glad Rick started this forum. It's great to hear you guys talk about this stuff, even if it's not about boats. I never realized turbulent flow caused irritation in the vascular system leading to plaque build up, but it makes sense.

[BeauV]

Olaf,

Interesting stuff. At Heartflow we did find a lot of "normal" arteries that had various pockets of turbulent flow and a lot more back flow (probably not the right name for flow that runs counter to the standard direction). It was particularly intense where there were small branches exiting a large artery at sharp angles, which was a lot more common than I would have expected. You can actually hear the turbulence with a good mic and amplifier, particularly in the carotid arteries.

In these back eddies or back flows the velocity of the blood is a lot slower, just like in a river, and we had pondered stuff dropping out of the fluid as silt does in a river. But I've no idea if that happens. The decrease in flow as the turbulence increases is quite striking. I'd never considered something like erosion of the lumen (is that the right word?) boundary of the artery due to turbulence, but it seems sensical.

All very interesting stuff.

Beau

[Olaf Hart]

If blood sits still it clots. The question is which comes first, the stasis following a functional obstruction due to turbulence, or does the clot come first.
The PM findings generally show clots, so the assumption is we clot first. May not be so in many cases.
Again, no formal evidence for this stuff, just an interest.

[Orestes Munn]

According to my limited understanding, something, I.e., some inflammatory component has to activate platelets to begin to form a plaque under the damaged endothelium. The degree of inflammatory activation also determines the likelihood of acute thrombus formation under all all circumstances. This is why people with inflammatory processes, for a famous example, gum disease, are at greater risk for heart attacks and strokes and why markers for inflammation, like c reactive protein are so strongly associated with vascular risk.

[Tim OConnell]

I don't care what they say... I'm having some Irish bacon this morning to line the system for the cold and wet day we have for the fist race of the 2013 Hot Rum series.

[Tigger]

Tigger:
Is "beans in a tomato sauce" a regular off the shelf item?

I'd like to try your recipe.

You are correct Bob--off the shelf. The kind of beans you would use if you were going to cut up a hot dog and add it in. It may be called something slightly different on your side of the 49th parallel?

The reason I underlined it is that one needs a certain amount of fluid in the mix to give it the right consistency when cooked; the beans with sauce are an important component of that.

Bon Appetit!

[BeauV]

Bob,

These "Beans in Tomato Sauce" are easy to make. Stacey makes ours so we can get 'em without all the Corn Syrup and stuff that many of the canned beans have. Recipe on-line here: http://www.simplyrecipes.com/recipes/ba ... ato_sauce/

This is the imported from the UK version: http://www.soap.com/p/heinz-beans-in-to ... -pk-320555 (ingredients: Navy Beans, Tomatoes, Water, Sugar, Glucose Syrup, Salt, Modified Corn Starch, Distilled Vinegar, Spices.

BV

[Soñadora]

Wow, I'm sure glad Rick started this forum. It's great to hear you guys talk about this stuff, even if it's not about boats. I never realized turbulent flow caused irritation in the vascular system leading to plaque build up, but it makes sense.

no shit!