Scantlings

I have an invention that may gain some traction. I did an initial patent search and turned up something similar. The difference being that my invention is more for safety in an industrial setting wheras the other is for recreation. The construction is considerably different but in an abstract sense, they perform the same.

I went through the tutorial and instructions on the USPTO and I'm still not 100% clear if my invention is the "same". The USPTO said that there are no gurantees that 'similar' means 'same' and it may or may not be patentable.

it's not very expensive to file for a patent. Should I just go for it or would it be necessary to secure an attorney?

Not sure about that Rick, but my sister in law is an intellectual properties attorney and I will ask her.

RIck,

I would file the best patent I could as quickly as I could. Today, at least in my area of technology, the patents are so complex that the patent office hasn't got a clue about what is the same and what is different. They might be better in your area, but I wouldn't bet on it. IMHO the patent office has become a time-stamp service that logs the time when you claim an invention - nothing more.

BV

Thanks guys

This invention is nothing incredibly earth-shattering.

I can file this electronically. That will not be difficult. The USPTO mentions I can file either Provisional or Nonprovisional patents. The Nonprovisional sounds like the 'actual' patent and provisional doesn't necessarily mean anything other than you have a year to file for nonprovisional.

Does that sound right?

Soñadora wrote:Thanks guys

This invention is nothing incredibly earth-shattering.

I can file this electronically. That will not be difficult. The USPTO mentions I can file either Provisional or Nonprovisional patents. The Nonprovisional sounds like the 'actual' patent and provisional doesn't necessarily mean anything other than you have a year to file for nonprovisional.

Does that sound right?

Yup, you file the "provisional" to get your time/date stamp with the Patent Office. Then you do the work to get the real one filed. You want the earliest date you can get if you believe there is competition.

Sorry Rick but my brother and his wife are on vacation and I can't reach them. I'll keep trying.

Rick, a patent can be useful, or it can be a complete waste of time and money. It probably won't keep someone else from making a competitive product, and it can be very expensive to defend. Many patents are narrow enough that they can be designed around pretty easily. But, if you think you might try to sell your idea / product to a large company, or if your idea is truly big, then a patent can be very valuable.

I've got (I think) 14 patents in my name, and they were all filed by the companies I worked for. None of these were earth-shaking, but a few might have protected some small competitive advantage. In my experience, companies collect and trade patents like baseball cards. We would occasionally be sent notice that we were violating some competitor's patent (on review we almost never were). We would usually protest our innocence, and suggest that the other company was violating one or more of our patents (which was usually a stretch, but we claimed it). The end result was usually that we would cross-license some patents and we would be both better immunized in the future.

A few years ago I filed a provisional patent on a pretty good idea, but when it came time to go for the real one I realized that the likely gain would be less than the cost and effort needed to file. I've got another product idea I am considering filing -- don't know how far I will take it though.

So, be realistic about the value of the patent -- how big is the idea, and how might you use the patent? Can it be easily designed around?

I'm on a patent for something I had virtually nothing to do with thinking up. It was filed for us by the government and I think I could make something from it once I leave if anyone ever licenses it. I have had a couple of good ideas of my own over the years, which I stupidly discussed ; whereupon, they became other peoples' ideas. Now, when I have a good one, I file it away for later. I'll probably go to the nursing home with my secrets inviolate.

my biggest concern is someone come after me thinking I copied them. Does having a patent assume that wouldn't be the case? Less concerned about someone stealing my idea. It's something pretty easy to replicate. If I do sell it, it would probably be a one-time introduction. Once it's in the market, I would expect copies to be made all over the place. I would be okay with making a small chunk of cash and moving on to the next thing.

I'm currently working the kinks out of my 3rd prototype. I spoke to a marketing firm. They really liked the idea. In fact, they said I needed to be careful who I showed this to as I might need to be prepared to ship 10,000 units in a short period of time. They suggested that I see if a local retailer would like to try to hustle 100 units of these to see if there's any interest. 100 units would be no problem for me to make.

I'm currently trying to line up suppliers for the components via Alibaba. That's an interesting experience. I may also try going through Kickstarter. I have questions regarding IP about that avenue as well.

Beau's advice is sound, file a provisional, and then finalise the product before you file a final. It is expensive to keep making changes.

We use patent lawyers, but then we have over 300, and are a company of only 8 people.

Always remember, a patent is only worth the amount you are prepared to spend to defend it. We rely heavily on NDAs.

I've had a lot of trouble enforcing NDAs, especially across borders. But it does work as psychological barrier.

I pool our patents in Holland. I'm in a traditional industry, so most patents are easy to design around, but it does help with tax planning.

O.K. as a hijack to this thread.
App's I see some App's sell for $5 or more, sometimes 100,000 downloads on those app's. That's like, even using all my fingers and all my toes. Dam that's a lot of beer!
So, if I had an idea for an App that would be easy to duplicate (like any app) but no skills to realize it, What do I do?
The western world has gone Safety Crazy in work-places, easy pickings for the computer savvy. pity I'm not so computer savvy.

Jeroen

floating dutchman wrote:O.K. as a hijack to this thread.
App's I see some App's sell for $5 or more, sometimes 100,000 downloads on those app's. That's like, even using all my fingers and all my toes. Dam that's a lot of beer!
So, if I had an idea for an App that would be easy to duplicate (like any app) but no skills to realize it, What do I do?
The western world has gone Safety Crazy in work-places, easy pickings for the computer savvy. pity I'm not so computer savvy.

Jeroen

If you have an idea for an App there are numerous companies who will build it for you. You don't need to do the programming, but you do need to lay out what the customer would see on the screen. There are a number of folks who are experts in fields that have nothing to do with computers or phones who have made a reasonable amount of beer money by doing this. As you correctly surmise, it's hard to get that sort of thing noticed unless you have a separate way to get the App recognized as a "good one" by whatever group of customers you're selling to. For example, iNavX took off once a lot of sailors chatted with each other about how well it worked, not based on Google keywords, or being "featured" on the App Store.

My recommendation would be to take an area that you are a true expert in and design something that you would find REALLY useful. Draw pictures of what the screen of the phone would look like for each of the screens as one would use the App and pass it around to friends you trust in your field, folks who are also experts. Once your convinced you know exactly what the App should do, it's trivial to get someone to code it. Indeed, there are some here on Scantlings who could do that.

For every dollar you spend getting the App written, be sure to reserve about 5-10 dollars to market it.

I'm aware of some starving college students (my son's roommates last year) who code apps. I'll bet you could run down some a bit closer and wouldn't have to correct their spelling all the time. It's been 20 years since I wrote anything but my understanding is that it's not terribly difficult.

it's not difficult. BV is right. Getting attention is.

It's just like any other great invention. Lots of dumb ideas, only a handfull of really good (or lucky) ones.

as for my venture, I am having a few RP parts made and will have a working concept pretty soon, I hope. Still need to put in for my provisional patent

Thanks lads, I also have an app idea that I an working through. Have most of it drawn out already and a brief business plan done.

BeauV wrote:

floating dutchman wrote:O.K. as a hijack to this thread.
App's I see some App's sell for $5 or more, sometimes 100,000 downloads on those app's. That's like, even using all my fingers and all my toes. Dam that's a lot of beer!
So, if I had an idea for an App that would be easy to duplicate (like any app) but no skills to realize it, What do I do?
The western world has gone Safety Crazy in work-places, easy pickings for the computer savvy. pity I'm not so computer savvy.

Jeroen

If you have an idea for an App there are numerous companies who will build it for you. You don't need to do the programming, but you do need to lay out what the customer would see on the screen. There are a number of folks who are experts in fields that have nothing to do with computers or phones who have made a reasonable amount of beer money by doing this. As you correctly surmise, it's hard to get that sort of thing noticed unless you have a separate way to get the App recognized as a "good one" by whatever group of customers you're selling to. For example, iNavX took off once a lot of sailors chatted with each other about how well it worked, not based on Google keywords, or being "featured" on the App Store.

My recommendation would be to take an area that you are a true expert in and design something that you would find REALLY useful. Draw pictures of what the screen of the phone would look like for each of the screens as one would use the App and pass it around to friends you trust in your field, folks who are also experts. Once your convinced you know exactly what the App should do, it's trivial to get someone to code it. Indeed, there are some here on Scantlings who could do that.

For every dollar you spend getting the App written, be sure to reserve about 5-10 dollars to market it.

Yea. The last sentence. Has been bugging me for a while, I can't even sell myself! (the CV help thread!).
I had a play with the App making program that Rick posted in another thread, I've done PLC programing in Ladder logic but this is another kettle of fish, I couldn't make head nor tail of it.
I'm not the person to take this concept to the next level, and it's dam simple.

Rick or Alx, Are you interested? you guys are keeping this site up.

I'm always interested. Whatcha got?

Soñadora wrote:I'm always interested. Whatcha got?

Very simple. Dead Mans Pedal.

I did a lot of work last year at a site that keeps apples in controlled atmosphere storage, basically they take to oxygen out of the air, keep the apples cool and they can last for years (usually only to the season though) without going off.
Problem it that is you get a leak in the system the workers looking after the site, well, have a long sleep.
They were looking at a system with transponders around the site, and on the staff (about 20-30) at a cost of over 100K.
At work now we get Otis Lifts to come and maintain (well that's what they call it :cry ). The have this expensive looking gizmo with them that e-mails the jobs to them, also it has their JSA (job safety annalist) form built in, it also E-mails them every 20 minuets and if they don't respond, someone comes looking for them.

With my $36 Samsung Mini 2 I downloaded a level App, don't really know how accurate it is but who cares, the phone has sensors in it that can be used, with a little "rate of change" logic to detect movement, or lack of.

Basic concept is, that after 1 minuet of no movement (maybe user adjustable) the phone starts beeping then a short time later enables the GPS if no movement is detected.
Another minuet later then the phone goes nuts with E-mails, texts and phone calls, maybe using Blue tooth and wifi to get hold of anyone it can.
Also if the phone is placed of a flat surface, like the lunch table then is should auto disable.

I understand that there are issues with the idea, like a lot of factories I have worked in over the years have poor cellphone coverage.
And the fact that it is a reactive measure not a proactive measure. Some companies won't like that.
The last company I worked for had us all texting one of the bosses when we had finished work for the day. They didn't want one of our wife's ringing them at 10 at night asking where one of us were.
If it were cheap they would look at an app like this.

I've had a look though the Google Play Store and have not found anything similar.

Like I said, Very easy to duplicate, And I do understand that someone who is really good at this stuff would easy sink 40+ hours into a working prototype.

That's it .

Jeroen

That's very interesting and a bit creepy.

But interesting nonetheless!

Why not just have a heart monitor? But I suppose that's even creepier with the e-mail subject line: "Attention, Bob's heart has stopped beating"

Do these guys take naps? I know that would be a problem for me

Or would there be a way to set up an environmental sensor of some kind that could attach to an iPhone?

Soñadora wrote:That's very interesting and a bit creepy.

But interesting nonetheless!

Why not just have a heart monitor? But I suppose that's even creepier with the e-mail subject line: "Attention, Bob's heart has stopped beating"

Do these guys take naps? I know that would be a problem for me

Or would there be a way to set up an environmental sensor of some kind that could attach to an iPhone?

Go whole hog.

We are doing some environmental testing for a company building a smart phone based TBI (concussion) detector for the US Army. Moe would have an opinion on how good it might be but the concept is to hook up the electrodes and essentially have a EEG App with automated analysis for abnormalities.

I'm not a brain surgeon (but have one over for dinner occasionally) but the concept sounds pretty cool. Our part is to evaluate it for shock/vibe/moisture protection, salt fog and the like so we don't have an opinion as to whether it is effective.

Always a thrill to take somebody's toy and try to break it. Sometimes they get upset when they send us a prototype and we send back pieces with a note that says "test failure at 60% of rated capacity". OTOH, we recently did a structural test where the customer provided holding fixture broke before any distress was shown by the test specimen. Sort of a "we can't tell you how strong it is but your holding fixture failed at XXX lbs.

Soñadora wrote:That's very interesting and a bit creepy.

But interesting nonetheless!

Why not just have a heart monitor? But I suppose that's even creepier with the e-mail subject line: "Attention, Bob's heart has stopped beating"

Do these guys take naps? I know that would be a problem for me

Or would there be a way to set up an environmental sensor of some kind that could attach to an iPhone?

The guys working in the CA storage wear a gas meter, but that only beeps at them when it's time to leave, if they don't make it out of the building then the phone would alert someone.
For much of my career I've worked by myself with people only having a vague idea of where I am, Fall down a hole and knock your self out and you could be in a spot of bother. This is life for a lot of tradesmen.

The idea is to use what is already in most peoples pockets at a minimal cost.

Jeroen

There are heart monitors by Garmin and Pilot that can connect to an iPhone via Bluetooth. The app you have in mind could link to that. They already monitor things like heart rate and steps or motion (my daughter uses one - for gym class).

I had a quick look on the internet, under 100 bucks for a blue tooth heart rate monitor.
That makes it a viable option.
Now I like the idea, getting staff to wear will be an issue in a lot of places though.

Just purchased a 2-up QU-BD 3d Printer.



"Some assembly required"

I'm expecting it will take a few days to get it tweaked.

I will be using it to build my a prototype that I may pitch for Shark Tank.

I may have mentioned this product before, but I'm going to keep it a bit quiet until my provisional patent is finished.

Stay tuned!

Rick,

My daddy, a lawyer, always said that the time to see a lawyer is before you get in trouble. I think that was good advice.

Good luck.

BC

Someone dunnit!

http://www.mandownapp.com/

floating dutchman wrote:Someone dunnit!

http://www.mandownapp.com/

Hummm, looks like it would be easy to get false alarms.

kimbottles wrote:

floating dutchman wrote:Someone dunnit!

http://www.mandownapp.com/

Hummm, looks like it would be easy to get false alarms.

Yes, no napping on a park bench!

floating dutchman wrote:

Soñadora wrote:I'm always interested. Whatcha got?

Very simple. Dead Mans Pedal.

Basic concept is, that after 1 minuet of no movement (maybe user adjustable) the phone starts beeping then a short time later enables the GPS if no movement is detected.
Another minuet later then the phone goes nuts with E-mails, texts and phone calls, maybe using Blue tooth and wifi to get hold of anyone it can.
Also if the phone is placed of a flat surface, like the lunch table then is should auto disable.

This is similar to the lack-of-motion-sensing alarm I used to wear as a volunteer firefighter. This was before smartphones, or cellphones for that matter. It was a little yellow box we would strap on when we suited up for a structure fire. It might have been attached to our breathing apparatus -- I don't recall as I only wore this stuff in drills (my firefighting days mostly involved vehicle accidents, vehicle fires, wildland fires, and drug overdoses.) If we were motionless for (one minute?) the very loud alarm would go off. That's it -- no email, just a loud siren that the other firefighters might be able to hear.