"I'm a sailing vessel and have the right of way"

[cap10ed]

Here is a shot from the Bridge of a container ship Heading for the Lion's Gate Bridge in Vancouver. The breadth of the ship also makes it a physical work out going from one side to the other keeping the electronic situational awareness married to the visual. The blind spot on this ship is 2.4 miles. The headache for ship personal is yachts having all the tools but not using them or incorrectly using them. Every large port has a VTS (Vessel Traffic Separation) center. Small craft are encouraged to monitor that channel as well as Channel 16. Playing chicken with a ship is a fool's game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tUoUxzt9sI
What is telling to me is the comments section under the video clip. Rules ? We don't need no STINKIN rules. What's cool now we have another Pilot on this forum Chris and I am sure he has had his share of sea lawyers making demands whilst sharing a marked channel with a ship. Ish is that you off to starboard in that bridge picture? LOL

[Ish]

Here is a shot from the Bridge of a container ship Heading for the Lion's Gate Bridge in Vancouver. The breadth of the ship also makes it a physical work out going from one side to the other keeping the electronic situational awareness married to the visual. The blind spot on this ship is 2.4 miles. The headache for ship personal is yachts having all the tools but not using them or incorrectly using them. Every large port has a VTS (Vessel Traffic Separation) center. Small craft are encouraged to monitor that channel as well as Channel 16. Playing chicken with a ship is a fool's game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tUoUxzt9sI
What is telling to me is the comments section under the video clip. Rules ? We don't need no STINKIN rules. What's cool now we have another Pilot on this forum Chris and I am sure he has had his share of sea lawyers making demands whilst sharing a marked channel with a ship. Ish is that you off to starboard in that bridge picture? LOL

Not me, I don't go anywhere near Vancouver, or big ships.
This is me dodging ferry traffic in the Gulf Islands, though.

[Chris Chesley]

I've seen more ship/yacht interactions here in the PNW that have gotten me shaking my head in wonderment. Two issues that yachties seem not to understand. One, is to keep your head out of the boat. Racers (sometimes) are better at this since they're attuned to the competition around them if they're successful. Unfortunately, they can be oblivious to anything that isn't close to their rating! The second issue is the difficulty judging speed of large ships and ferries. When a 40 foot powerboat is coming at you at 15 knots, you know they're gonna be up on you shortly. When a ship is coming at you at 15 knots, it's often difficult to even gauge that they're moving at all. When anothe yacht is three or four boat lengths away, you know he's getting close. When a ship is 1/4 to 1/2 mile away, HE's only 3 or 4 boatlengths away---makes a difference!

[cap10ed]

Ish was this your article dealing with large wakes? In the Welland Canal when we meet small craft wake isn't the issue . We draw the water away from the canal sides as we pass and reduce the draft there. I have watched as boaters instinctively shy away from the ship ( a good thing) and move closer to the beach prior to meeting the ship. If they cast their glance to the beach they would see the water receding much like a tsunami cycle. Water out, water back with a vengeance. With power boaters this isn't much of an issue but the deep draft 90' maxi racers that come up for the Chicago Mac have come pretty close to running aground and getting spun around by the returning waters. On a weather note, all our snow has melted in St Catharines and motorbikes are back on the road riding around. No ice on the lakes, looking more and more like year round sailing. The big news is the Toronto Boat show next week. It's been 4 years since I have been to that show.

[cap10ed]

I've seen more ship/yacht interactions here in the PNW that have gotten me shaking my head in wonderment. Two issues that yachties seem not to understand. One, is to keep your head out of the boat. Racers (sometimes) are better at this since they're attuned to the competition around them if they're successful. Unfortunately, they can be oblivious to anything that isn't close to their rating! The second issue is the difficulty judging speed of large ships and ferries. When a 40 foot powerboat is coming at you at 15 knots, you know they're gonna be up on you shortly. When a ship is coming at you at 15 knots, it's often difficult to even gauge that they're moving at all. When anothe yacht is three or four boat lengths away, you know he's getting close. When a ship is 1/4 to 1/2 mile away, HE's only 3 or 4 boatlengths away---makes a difference!

Good point Chris. Our trimaran has done some long distance races and the crew are more a-tuned to the circle of competition around us. They are really good at using the bearing compass binoculars to tag other boats in the race but completely ignore the ship bearing down on them from the port bow." If it isn't in the race it doesn't matter fixation" That's why I stand the night watch. On open ocean work Chris,how much regard do you give to small craft that contact you for clarification on a meet, say red to red or green to green. Or do you just tell them to stand clear.I get asked that question all the time . The Great Lakes have recommended routes and for the most part once on the lake standing orders are to navigate, communicate, and make a friend not an enemy. Ships are pretty accommodating to small craft. Breaks up a boring watch.

[Tim OConnell]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNX4xqlXJE[/youtube]

[cap10ed]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brNX4xqlXJE[/youtube]

And my all time favorite Tim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yR0lWICH3rY

[Orestes Munn]

I get complacent/distracted sometimes, here in the busy upper Chesapeake, but no yacht with my wife aboard is going to get snuck up on by commercial traffic.

Sounds hokey, but the poor man's, internet, AIS app for iPhone works perfectly in the upper Bay and we have used to good effect on distance races. Picks up nothing south of Pt. Lookout, though.

[Chris Chesley]

Cap10

Offshore it's a different ballgame. If I see them, I go around them. It's the see them that is difficult. Normally, at sea, it was (is?) customary to run on a 24 mile radar range. Works good for big ships. Quiet night and sea, you can pick 'em up at 24 miles, certainly by 16 or 17 miles. At a closing speed of 30 plus, you still have plenty of time to maneuver if required. Small boats on the other hand....

Small boats are lucky to be picked up at 7-8 miles by radar. Even then, it's likely a small intermittent return. Running lights seldom show up that far although it's possible, especially on a dark night. (moonlit nights are the worst for visual acquisition since the brightness of the moonlight makes all but the strongest lights hard to see). The problem comes when the radar has to use the sea clutter adjustment to dial down all the sea return. You either dial it out or it overwhelms the first 3-4 miles from the ship. This gives the watch officer a 'window' of 3 or 4 miles to catch sight of the intermittent return on the screen. Again, at 15-16 knots, that's a 15 minute maximum window of opportunity to be seen by the watchstander--who also has to make the coffee, fill out the logbook, answer the engineroom phone, pick his nose and, oh, yeah, look out the window and into the radar hood. The odds grow long that you'll be seen.

The advent of AIS is a lifesaver--for the yacht. Assuming the bridge radio volume didn't get turned down, you can now call the specific ship and alert them to your presence. It's a dramatic improvement.

One other thing for the small boat guy--learn about ranges and ship's range lights. They'll tell you a ton about whether or not you're at risk as will a constant bearing. Don't count on the big guy to avoid you. Be proactive, alert and savvy, stay out of their way. Death really can't be appealed even if you're right!

[kimbottles]

During that epic run from San Francisco to Neah Bay on the mighty Atalanta (the boat that bends light) a number of years ago, right in the middle of that force ten storm at night, I was on watch and steering when a deep draft's running lights showed up off our starboard bow coming right down on us. It was blowing like crazy and we were trucking along towards him at double digit speed under a double reefed main only. My watch mate called him on 16, no response, on 13 no response. So I had to decide if I wanted to come up (the wind was over our port quarter) or fall off and risk a jibe (which I sure as hell wasn't going to do in those conditions!!). To fall off and pass ahead of him just looked like a disaster from the possible jibe to crossing a deep draft's bow under those conditions. So I came up and we heeled way the hell over until we passed each other starboard to starboard. Sure would have been nice if someone had been on his bridge with the VHF on......assuming they would have taken pity on us and altered course.

[cap10ed]

During that epic run from San Francisco to Neah Bay on the mighty Atalanta (the boat that bends light) a number of years ago, right in the middle of that force ten storm at night, I was on watch and steering when a deep draft's running lights showed up off our starboard bow coming right down on us. It was blowing like crazy and we were trucking along towards him at double digit speed under a double reefed main only. My watch mate called him on 16, no response, on 13 no response. So I had to decide if I wanted to come up (the wind was over our port quarter) or fall off and risk a jibe (which I sure as hell wasn't going to do in those conditions!!). To fall off and pass ahead of him just looked like a disaster from the possible jibe to crossing a deep draft's bow under those conditions. So I came up and we heeled way the hell over until we passed each other starboard to starboard. Sure would have been nice if someone had been on his bridge with the VHF on......assuming they would have taken pity on us and altered course.

Kim when you came up into the wind on your port 1/4 and he was on your starboard bow prior you put him into an overtaking vessel situation. Nice move if done early enough. Watch standards are all over the map Kim. Once clear of choke points during the ships transit the watches tend to relax their guard. ARPA class radars are set to pick up ships and give crossing info. Picking up small craft as Chris mentioned is really hit and miss. The other headache is whether the con on a foreign ship is by a Pilot or ship personnel. Pilots or domestic ships will know the local geography and if you said calling the north bound freighter off Loma Point they might catch that a ship is calling them if they are in that vicinity. AIS is making it easier to communicate. In this new electronic environment you would have had enough warning that a collision was eminent. With the ships name in hand , you contact the ship and ask if he would let you cross his bow as you are a sailing vessel in a sea state that might endanger the crew if you had to call hands on deck. Worked for me asking a 1000' laker to alter course .I had crew but all but one was sea sick.

[kimbottles]

This was 100 miles off the Oregon coast well before AIS (1993). Atalanta is 120,000 pounds of old maxi racer, not really a small craft.

But alls well that ends well, and I get to brag that I sailed thru a force ten storm,.............. not that I ever want to do it again......

[BeauV]

On a somewhat related topic.... when we go single handed sailing we've been discussing putting a message in the AIS that says something to that effect. Of course, every singlehanded sailor has to break the regulation to keep a good look out - or never sleep - so saying something like "I'm a single hander and I might be taking nap right now. Please go around me." would effectively be admitting to violation of the regulations. But, it might keep you alive. We're pondering what to do....

BV

[cap10ed]

On a somewhat related topic.... when we go single handed sailing we've been discussing putting a message in the AIS that says something to that effect. Of course, every singlehanded sailor has to break the regulation to keep a good look out - or never sleep - so saying something like "I'm a single hander and I might be taking nap right now. Please go around me." would effectively be admitting to violation of the regulations. But, it might keep you alive. We're pondering what to do....

BV

You could put not under command notation on AIS and leave it at that. The correct lights or shapes would also alert people around you were not under command.Rule 27 - Vessels not under command or restricted in their ability to manoeuvre
(a) A vessel not under command shall exhibit:
(i) two all-round red lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen;
(ii) two balls or similar shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen;
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.

[cap10ed]

This was 100 miles off the Oregon coast well before AIS (1993). Atalanta is 120,000 pounds of old maxi racer, not really a small craft.

But alls well that ends well, and I get to brag that I sailed thru a force ten storm,.............. not that I ever want to do it again......

Atalanta was a real looker. Tripp had signature recessed port lights in his designs that I always liked. I'd say you had one hell of a ride pushing a 60 ton boat in Force 10. I met up with Condor of New Zealand in the 80's. She was a woody and what blew me away was the scale of the blocks and winches to harness the winds energy. Your Force 10 ride had some real serious loads on that mainsheet and rudder. Shudder to think if a block ever failed. Your a lucky man to have that trip done in your bucket list.

[kimbottles]

This was 100 miles off the Oregon coast well before AIS (1993). Atalanta is 120,000 pounds of old maxi racer, not really a small craft.

But alls well that ends well, and I get to brag that I sailed thru a force ten storm,.............. not that I ever want to do it again......

Atalanta was a real looker. Tripp had signature recessed port lights in his designs that I always liked. I'd say you had one hell of a ride pushing a 60 ton boat in Force 10. I met up with Condor of New Zealand in the 80's. She was a woody and what blew me away was the scale of the blocks and winches to harness the winds energy. Your Force 10 ride had some real serious loads on that mainsheet and rudder. Shudder to think if a block ever failed. Your a lucky man to have that trip done in your bucket list.

Once was enough Ed, like I said, I don't want to EVER do that again.......Derek was her skipper back then, it was fun to have the title of "Father of the Skipper" while aboard. During races I trimmed the mizzen and tried to stay out of the way of the rock stars on board.

[Tim OConnell]

AIS is useful when trying to contact commercial vessels, sometimes..
Coming back from Maui in 2010, we had a Class A aboard. On at least three occasions we tried to contact tankers and container ships to let them know we were there and our heading and speed (even though they should have been able to see it on their AIS), and ask them for their intended course. Nuffin, nada no reply.

In 2011, crossing a shipping lane NW of the Gulf stream on the way back to Newport, we had a Class B receiver on. The first Russian ship was saw was contacted and was fantastic. They altered course for us and signed off with Bon Voyage... Later that night another Russian ship doing inconsistent course and speed changes was contacted. After giving them our course and speed and asking their intentions, their radio operator denied being that ship, and denied being in the area. I asked how that was possible given that we were talking in VHF range, and could see them on the AIS and radar. It was a bizarre conversation. In any event, with no sensible response, we made a big course alteration to avoid them.

[Tigger]

In 2011, crossing a shipping lane NW of the Gulf stream on the way back to Newport, we had a Class B receiver on. The first Russian ship was saw was contacted and was fantastic. They altered course for us and signed off with Bon Voyage... Later that night another Russian ship doing inconsistent course and speed changes was contacted. After giving them our course and speed and asking their intentions, their radio operator denied being that ship, and denied being in the area. I asked how that was possible given that we were talking in VHF range, and could see them on the AIS and radar. It was a bizarre conversation. In any event, with no sensible response, we made a big course alteration to avoid them.

And all along I thought it was just a movie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El03KPUeQc4

[cap10ed]

Poor chap still doesn’t get it. Even after being found guilty. Stubborn bastard.

http://gcaptain.com/sailboat-dismasted- ... too-close/

[Orestes Munn]

Poor chap still doesn’t get it. Even after being found guilty. Stubborn bastard.

http://gcaptain.com/sailboat-dismasted- ... too-close/

Jerk.

Had to cross the ship channel for the last mark of a distance race, yesterday, when we saw a bulk carrier coming down from the Bay Bridge. Target angle was effectively zero, so there was no easy way of figuring out if we would cross. 5 min later he's no bigger, 10 min and we're way past. Then he started coming. Fast, He had parked it until the last boat had crossed him.

[cap10ed]

Poor chap still doesn’t get it. Even after being found guilty. Stubborn bastard.

http://gcaptain.com/sailboat-dismasted- ... too-close/

Jerk.

Had to cross the ship channel for the last mark of a distance race, yesterday, when we saw a bulk carrier coming down from the Bay Bridge. Target angle was effectively zero, so there was no easy way of figuring out if we would cross. 5 min later he's no bigger, 10 min and we're way past. Then he started coming. Fast, He had parked it until the last boat had crossed him.

That was considerate of them.Orestes I see things from both sides of the equation. In the professional side I always assume incompetence on the part of the small craft I meet. I am more than delighted when the VHF hails me and a discussion about meeting protocol ensues and we iron out what is going to happen. That fella on the yacht that was bowled over had that option to hail the vessel. I don’t think he would have liked the answer he would have gotten. “ Don your lifejackets mate ! “

[BeauV]

I've had the great pleasure of sailing in the Solent and around Cowes a number of times. The interaction between small boats and large commercial traffic is simply amazing. This particular event got caught on tape, from the lawn of the Royal Yacht Squadron I think based on what's in the video, but we've seen dozens of close calls and crunches.

My favorite, which sadly I don't have on film, was a 40' sloop of some type (possibly a J-120 or Bene) beam reaching along in a lot of wind on Starboard tack with the asym chute up. They were heeling enough that the skipper and crew (all hiking hard) didn't see the Southampton ferry crossing their track until it's bow emerged from below the luff of the asym chute. At that point, I'd guess they were about 4 boat lengths from the ferry. The helmsman, for some reason I'll never know, bore off and drove bow first right into the side of the ferry. I guess he thought he could duck it; it's LONG! The ferry never stopped, alter course, honked, nothing. Rig went down, no one hurt (other than egos) and the sloop was disqualified from the race for violating the sailing instruction to keep clear of commercial traffic. Doh!

I think you get those sorts of accidents when there are so MANY boats in such close proximity in conditions that can be rather "sporty".

BV

[Orestes Munn]

Poor chap still doesn’t get it. Even after being found guilty. Stubborn bastard.

http://gcaptain.com/sailboat-dismasted- ... too-close/

Jerk.

Had to cross the ship channel for the last mark of a distance race, yesterday, when we saw a bulk carrier coming down from the Bay Bridge. Target angle was effectively zero, so there was no easy way of figuring out if we would cross. 5 min later he's no bigger, 10 min and we're way past. Then he started coming. Fast, He had parked it until the last boat had crossed him.

That was considerate of them.Orestes I see things from both sides of the equation. In the professional side I always assume incompetence on the part of the small craft I meet. I am more than delighted when the VHF hails me and a discussion about meeting protocol ensues and we iron out what is going to happen. That fella on the yacht that was bowled over had that option to hail the vessel. I don’t think he would have liked the answer he would have gotten. “ Don your lifejackets mate ! “

I assume he would have gotten a string of well-deserved profanity.

I seldom get an answer from anyone but tugs around here. Last time we hailed a cargo ship (several time on 16 and 13), it turned out to be the LNG tanker about which there had been USCG radio traffic from air and water for the last 30 min. Not a peep back from anyone.

[Rob McAlpine]

AIS is useful when trying to contact commercial vessels, sometimes..
Coming back from Maui in 2010, we had a Class A aboard. On at least three occasions we tried to contact tankers and container ships to let them know we were there and our heading and speed (even though they should have been able to see it on their AIS), and ask them for their intended course. Nuffin, nada no reply.

In 2011, crossing a shipping lane NW of the Gulf stream on the way back to Newport, we had a Class B receiver on. The first Russian ship was saw was contacted and was fantastic. They altered course for us and signed off with Bon Voyage... Later that night another Russian ship doing inconsistent course and speed changes was contacted. After giving them our course and speed and asking their intentions, their radio operator denied being that ship, and denied being in the area. I asked how that was possible given that we were talking in VHF range, and could see them on the AIS and radar. It was a bizarre conversation. In any event, with no sensible response, we made a big course alteration to avoid them.

I remember that quite well, it was pretty Kafka-esque. "What do you mean you're not you? I'm looking at you!"

I hope you're doing well, Tim. Beth and I were just talking about you today, yes, it was all good.

[LarryHoward]

My experience on the Chesapeake is a lot like Eric's. Little or no response. If I'm near the channel and the wind is shifty so that my heading is "uncertain", I'll hail an approaching ship and let the master or pilot know that I will not be crossing them. If it's a cruise ship, the LNG tanker or other DHS "high interest" vessel, and I'm near the channel, I'll let them know I am aware of their presence and will not interfere. I've had the USCG RHIB's cut me off with their 50 cal's after we implored the LNG tanker to not split a middle distance race fleet and I'd really rather not have an 18 YO point a 50 cal at me underway again.

Best response I've heard was when we hailed a northbound freighter one night during the governor's cup race with close to 100 sailboats riding the ebb down the channel. His response when hailed was to tell us "Tell all your little buddies to get the FXXX outa my way." Class. All class. Tugs with barges seem to be the worst in not responding at night and being perfectly willing to light you up for minutes at a time with searchlights aimed at the cockpit, preventing you from seeing the dim to non existent lights on the tow.

[cap10ed]

The message I leave with my friends is that the bigger the boat the bigger the crash. The commercial side of sailing has come a long way from the 70’s and low tech bridge equipment. It now has to cover, over worked under paid crew and better watch keeping standards to name a few. Costa Concordia the new poster child for watch keeping standards that should have been fixed. If you see a situation developing when encountering a large ship it is far easier for the smaller vessel to take evasive action. I remind my sailing buddies that a ship can't spin on a dime and squeal to a halt. I realize that on Scantlings I am talking to some very knowledgable sailors and the comments show that. I appreciate the two sides of the argument.

[Tigger]

When dealing with situations like this, it is important to remember the old saying about train tracks--"If there is a tie at the crossing, you lose."

One could say the same about Port-Starboard on the AC 72s.

[Tim OConnell]

AIS is useful when trying to contact commercial vessels, sometimes..
Coming back from Maui in 2010, we had a Class A aboard. On at least three occasions we tried to contact tankers and container ships to let them know we were there and our heading and speed (even though they should have been able to see it on their AIS), and ask them for their intended course. Nuffin, nada no reply.

In 2011, crossing a shipping lane NW of the Gulf stream on the way back to Newport, we had a Class B receiver on. The first Russian ship was saw was contacted and was fantastic. They altered course for us and signed off with Bon Voyage... Later that night another Russian ship doing inconsistent course and speed changes was contacted. After giving them our course and speed and asking their intentions, their radio operator denied being that ship, and denied being in the area. I asked how that was possible given that we were talking in VHF range, and could see them on the AIS and radar. It was a bizarre conversation. In any event, with no sensible response, we made a big course alteration to avoid them.

I remember that quite well, it was pretty Kafka-esque. "What do you mean you're not you? I'm looking at you!"

I hope you're doing well, Tim. Beth and I were just talking about you today, yes, it was all good.

Thanks Rob. Every day gets a bit better. I'm now walking at least two miles a day. Hopefully by late December I'll be back on the water

[kimbottles]

Good to hear you are doing well Tim!!

[JoeP]

Two miles already? Damn!