Scantlings

I was just subjected to a horrible discussion by 4 co-workers who crowded into my office, including my immediate supervisor.

Apparently they disagree with opening all combat positions to women. Ok, fine. It's ok to disagree.
The conversation rapidly devolved from there, denigrating the intelligence of military women and women in general, the same stereotypical statements about the physical qualities of women vs. men, talk of prostitution on Navy ships, inability to make intelligent decisions and on and on.

My stomach is absolutely churning over this.

Yes, I worked with some pretty sleazy, opportunistic women in the Navy who shook their money-makers to get out of any hard labor but I also served with women in the UAE who sweated alongside me silently, while I complained. Women who worked as hard as I did, who shot as well as I did, or better. I still cherish them as shipmates and maintaining contact with them is mainly what I use Facebook for.
My wife and sister-in-law are two of the most intelligent women I know, and in possession of more common sense than a lot of men that I know. They aren't just booksmart.

I am stunned and so disappointed that this is where we are, today. I work with engineers at a defense contractor, not a damn gas station or construction site. These people are supposed to be somewhat educated.

Yes, I considered stepping in but they were rapidly approaching orgasm in this ill-timed mental circle-jerk, and any words I may have offered would have been ineffectually flung into the wind.

Trump supporters?

Ajax wrote:I was just subjected to a horrible discussion by 4 co-workers who crowded into my office, including my immediate supervisor.

Apparently they disagree with opening all combat positions to women. Ok, fine. It's ok to disagree.
The conversation rapidly devolved from there, denigrating the intelligence of military women and women in general, the same stereotypical statements about the physical qualities of women vs. men, talk of prostitution on Navy ships, inability to make intelligent decisions and on and on.

My stomach is absolutely churning over this.

Yes, I worked with some pretty sleazy, opportunistic women in the Navy who shook their money-makers to get out of any hard labor but I also served with women in the UAE who sweated alongside me silently, while I complained. Women who worked as hard as I did, who shot as well as I did, or better. I still cherish them as shipmates and maintaining contact with them is mainly what I use Facebook for.
My wife and sister-in-law are two of the most intelligent women I know, and in possession of more common sense than a lot of men that I know. They aren't just booksmart.

I am stunned and so disappointed that this is where we are, today. I work with engineers at a defense contractor, not a damn gas station or construction site. These people are supposed to be somewhat educated.

Yes, I considered stepping in but they were rapidly approaching orgasm in this ill-timed mental circle-jerk, and any words I may have offered would have been ineffectually flung into the wind.

Tip of the iceberg. At least they're being openly crude instead of unconsciously applying double standards or ignoring women in meetings, while maintaining their innocence and fairness in all things. This is one of many reasons I rarely look at SA anymore. It's a Madame Tussaud's of the uglier contents of the white, US, male mind.

They haven't openly said if they're Trump supporters but I guess it would make an interesting study.

OM- I guess I'm shocked because I've worked with these people for some years and never heard this come out of their mouths before. Conservative leanings, sure but nothing so blatantly wrong and offensive.
I'm not pure, I have my prejudices that I'm working on but cheese and rice, these people were way over the line.

One of my co-workers is a black, female, former Air Force enlisted person. She holds degrees and certifications higher than anything I have and she works very hard. What if she had walked in at that moment? I'd like to think she'd kick these guys right in the junk.

Ajax wrote:They haven't openly said if they're Trump supporters but I guess it would make an interesting study.

OM- I guess I'm shocked because I've worked with these people for some years and never heard this come out of their mouths before. Conservative leanings, sure but nothing so blatantly wrong and offensive.
I'm not pure, I have my prejudices that I'm working on but cheese and rice, these people were way over the line.

One of my co-workers is a black, female, former Air Force enlisted person. She holds degrees and certifications higher than anything I have and she works very hard. What if she had walked in at that moment? I'd like to think she'd kick these guys right in the junk.

I know many liberal misogynists. Learning to keep this stuff in check in public actually helps shape ones' thinking, though.

Ajax, that can be a really tough situation. What a bummer!

As the father of two women and husband to one, all of whom are extremely successful in business and downright great humans, I get REALLY mad when subjected to the sort of encounter you just had. One of the great benefits of running the show here at work is that I can stand up and say: "Stop, get out of my office. I don't ever want to hear anything like that again." and they have to do it or quit (or get fired). At a prior large company we had a multi-million dollar legal bill for defending executives who were harassing women. I got all the execs in a room and said basically: "You're on your own. The company will NOT pay for your defense if you're found guilty. Moreover, we will accept your conviction as your resignation." It helped, or drove it underground, I'm not certain which.

I ended up showing some security footage to the Sr. VP of Sales of him pawing a woman and he "resigned" just before I could fire him. The poor woman never complained, but a lot of women seemed pleased he was gone.

This crap is all over the place, not just the military by any means. This is where men of good heart and sound values get to stand up and end it. I've no idea what you might actually do in your circumstances. Anyplace where I'm the CEO folks know from day one that there's not only zero tolerance of this crap, but that I will personally make it my business to drive that sort of person out of the organization. I'm quite proud that my sons have about the same opinion. If they didn't, their Mother would have smacked 'em.

Let me also say that earlier in my life I behaved in ways that will shame me for as long as I live. I hope I am better now.

Given that some of the smartest and most capable people I know are women, I just don't understand why some men do this. I put it down to them trying to compensate for their insecurities and short-comings.

(Somehow I managed to get one of those very capable smart women to marry me, best thing I have done in life.)

Ajax, sorry to hear that. Sad to say but as OM said it is still quite prevalent in society.

Good on ya Beau! Me, My mom (rest in peace), my wife and my daughter salute you. It drives me nuts that the equal rights amendment was never passed despite it's being introduced in congress in 1923.

Amen Kim.

Orestes Munn wrote:Let me also say that earlier in my life I behaved in ways that will shame me for as long as I live. I hope I am better now.

OM - as a young man I was an ass. Actually, that is an insult to a horses ass. I was worse than that. One of my grandfathers had the good sense to "explain" things to me, for which I've been eternally grateful. There's nothing worse than a reformed bad-kid.

BeauV wrote:

Orestes Munn wrote:Let me also say that earlier in my life I behaved in ways that will shame me for as long as I live. I hope I am better now.

OM - as a young man I was an ass. Actually, that is an insult to a horses ass. I was worse than that. One of my grandfathers had the good sense to "explain" things to me, for which I've been eternally grateful. There's nothing worse than a reformed bad-kid.

While it wasn't the worst thing I ever did by a long shot (I am not going to go there), I was called out privately by a woman about 10 years ago for an inappropriate comment I made in her presence at work. It must have taken quite a bit of courage, because she was considerably junior to me. At least I recognized immediately that she was right, didn't try to defend myself, and simply apologized and thanked her. I am cringing now just thinking about it and hoping it didn't get around too much. You can learn a lot by being an idiot.

Just makes me wonder about all the times when no one had the guts to say something.

Hormones are powerful at influencing behavior for those of us that are here through natural selection.

I've matured to being careful about even a "I like your new skirt" at work.

I'm a short guy with grey hair. A woman with analogous superficial shortcomings would be treated more harshly than I. That sucks.

Orestes Munn wrote:Let me also say that earlier in my life I behaved in ways that will shame me for as long as I live. I hope I am better now.

We have *got* to have a meal together soon. I could use a good story!

kdh wrote:Hormones are powerful at influencing behavior for those of us that are here through natural selection.

Is that what was screwing me up when I was in my 20s!??!

BeauV wrote:

kdh wrote:Hormones are powerful at influencing behavior for those of us that are here through natural selection.

Is that what was screwing me up when I was in my 20s!??!

You got off easy. I'm still having manstruation.

I've walked out of a lot conversations like that, whether women, black people, you name it.

My dad had his faults, but he was always an old-fashioned gentleman, as was his father, and my mother would not accept less. When I was around 13 years old, at dinner one night, I asked my mother to get me some more iced tea or something, and she nicely said, "Bobby, I think you can get that yourself," to which I responded, "What do you think I am, a waitress?" Well, I never felt my father's wrath like that before or since.

As a commercial banker, the best borrowing customer I ever had, in terms of treating my bank as a financial partner, was a company started and owned by women. They were completely open with us and very thoughtful in their approach to growing their business. Later, in my career as a business analyst, I worked for a very bright woman who was about 15 years younger than me. Best boss I have ever had.

I feel fortunate that respect for women was beaten into me at a young age. I have always been disgusted by men who paw women, and I have never gone to a strip show or topless bar. They demean women, they are in bad taste, and my mother would be ashamed of me.

Now I am going to vacuum the dining room and iron Margie's blouse.

"Never do anything that you'd be ashamed to tell me about." Alyce Vrolyk (my mom)

Best advice ever!

Bull City wrote:I've walked out of a lot conversations like that, whether women, black people, you name it.

My dad had his faults, but he was always an old-fashioned gentleman, as was his father, and my mother would not accept less. When I was around 13 years old, at dinner one night, I asked my mother to get me some more iced tea or something, and she nicely said, "Bobby, I think you can get that yourself," to which I responded, "What do you think I am, a waitress?" Well, I never felt my father's wrath like that before or since.

As a commercial banker, the best borrowing customer I ever had, in terms of treating my bank as a financial partner, was a company started and owned by women. They were completely open with us and very thoughtful in their approach to growing their business. Later, in my career as a business analyst, I worked for a very bright woman who was about 15 years younger than me. Best boss I have ever had.

I feel fortunate that respect for women was beaten into me at a young age. I have always been disgusted by men who paw women, and I have never gone to a strip show or topless bar. They demean women, they are in bad taste, and my mother would be ashamed of me.

Now I am going to vacuum the dining room and iron Margie's blouse.

Bobby, great stories.

My dad objected once and strongly to my use of "she" with my mom, and now I have the same thinking. I always use someone's name when I remember it and avoid pronouns.

My dad also loves women, figuratively and literally. Since he and my mom split he's been adventurous and has women all over the globe who love to be with him. He's nothing to look at but he has this completely unselfish and loving way that seems to be instantly recognized. Last weekend I asked, I can't remember why, if he'd ever been with a black woman. He just said, "Oh yeah, of course." He loves the company of women, simply.

The world is so much better with the opposite sex for so many reasons.

My one and only business partner was a woman. I never trusted them before and I will never trust them again.
On the other hand, I'm married to one and this one is not nearly as captious or as vituperative.

So how about misandry?

Seems to me a whole generation of women educated in the 60's and 70's incorporated the concept of male oppression into their DNA.

My brother and his wife, both very heavy duty academics with PhD's from the seventies visited this weekend.

She was making repeated references to male oppression.

In the end, I had to point out how important it was for men to appreciate their fallibility, and accept that they could make mistakes.

Because they happened so rarely.

She got the message, but things were a little tense after that.

Olaf Hart wrote:So how about misandry?

Seems to me a whole generation of women educated in the 60's and 70's incorporated the concept of male oppression into their DNA.

My brother and his wife, both very heavy duty academics with PhD's from the seventies visited this weekend.

She was making repeated references to male oppression.

In the end, I had to point out how important it was for men to appreciate their fallibility, and accept that they could make mistakes.

Because they happened so rarely.

She got the message, but things were a little tense after that.

Sometimes you just need to whack someone. One good smack upside the pumpkin.

Ish wrote:

Olaf Hart wrote:So how about misandry?

Seems to me a whole generation of women educated in the 60's and 70's incorporated the concept of male oppression into their DNA.

My brother and his wife, both very heavy duty academics with PhD's from the seventies visited this weekend.

She was making repeated references to male oppression.

In the end, I had to point out how important it was for men to appreciate their fallibility, and accept that they could make mistakes.

Because they happened so rarely.

She got the message, but things were a little tense after that.

Sometimes you just need to whack someone. One good smack upside the pumpkin.

OLAF,

I have noticed that male oppression seems to be a hot topic for Australian women these days. My wife's cousins seem to have few other topics that they post such strong opinions about in their Facebook pages.

I just assumed all Australian males had gone full yabbo.

Olaf Hart wrote:So how about misandry?

Seems to me a whole generation of women educated in the 60's and 70's incorporated the concept of male oppression into their DNA.

My brother and his wife, both very heavy duty academics with PhD's from the seventies visited this weekend.

She was making repeated references to male oppression.

In the end, I had to point out how important it was for men to appreciate their fallibility, and accept that they could make mistakes.

Because they happened so rarely.

She got the message, but things were a little tense after that.

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

Growing up I had a very similar conversation as Bull City. But not long after I did it one better when the first time I was fed canned lima bean I asked my mom if she was trying to kill me. It took a while to sink in, but it got there.

My wife is a GM in Korea, where chauvinism is truly institutionalized. Everyone just assumed she would fail or quit when she took over the business because she's a woman. She has to be twice the man that I am to keep those knuckleheads in line without ruining the relationship - not easy when dealing with egotistical Doc's that think they're the hand of God and distributors that are used to getting the MNCs to bend over for sales. It took 3 years, but her sales managers have a lot of loyalty and respect for her now. I would have killed them long ago and failed.

Ish wrote:My one and only business partner was a woman. I never trusted them before and I will never trust them again.
On the other hand, I'm married to one and this one is not nearly as captious or as vituperative.

You married WAY up Ish. Mrs. Ish is a keeper!

Olaf Hart wrote:So how about misandry?

Seems to me a whole generation of women educated in the 60's and 70's incorporated the concept of male oppression into their DNA.

My brother and his wife, both very heavy duty academics with PhD's from the seventies visited this weekend.

She was making repeated references to male oppression.

In the end, I had to point out how important it was for men to appreciate their fallibility, and accept that they could make mistakes.

Because they happened so rarely.

She got the message, but things were a little tense after that.

You have such a wonderful way with words Olof!

Here's my contrarian view on something related and relevant to Valentine's Day: Of course, we love our spouses, if we've lived with them as long as many of us have. Of course they are attractive, high achievers with sterling qualities, who have made sacrifices for us and our children. We are understandably grateful to them for having put up with our annoying habits us, but please! The pedestal/worship stuff is just bit quaint and should have gone out with alpine hats, cotton raincoats, and the Playboy Club.

1. If you are really a morally inferior being who makes your spouse's life unhappy, then she should up and split, right? Why do you continue to inflict yourself on her if you care?

2. If you are a worthless bum, devoid of valuable or attractive qualities, what does that say about her, her taste, her judgment, and her opportunities in life? ...or are you just finding a humble way of telling us that she could have had anyone, but chose you?

3. If you wish to express your love and admiration, why do it at your own expense? Who is this about, anyway?

4. Do you think women go around naming their husbands "The Master" and pronouncing themselves unworthy of his lordly attentions? I've been around women a bit and never heard anything like that.

5. There are some notably great guys here whose, occasionally less than perfect, women probably give thanks every day for such decent, attractive, and entertaining, men to share their lives with.

Thank you for your attention.

Kim, how come you spell Olaf Olof? I've noticed it before, and the little anal retentive man in me is just wondering. Thanks.

Bull City wrote:Kim, how come you spell Olaf Olof? I've noticed it before, and the little anal retentive man in me is just wondering. Thanks.

It is a complicated joke which I can't reveal without revealing something about him that I am not at liberty to reveal.

It has to do with the origin of the name as he explained it to me when we were staying with him (and Sweet Hart) in Kettering, Tasmania in Feb of 2015 while we attended their Wooden Boat Show.

I am a bit surprised that someone has picked up on it. Now we will see if he chooses to explain it further, assuming he even remembers the conversation we had about it.

I noticed it as well, but didn't think to ask.

I never noticed - but then, I can't spell worth beens. (sic)