Scantlings

I'm a musician hack. Never formally trained. And I've never done any cover songs. But I have a good grasp of the theory. Several years ago I had a Fender Squier given to me. I've been watching videos and playing with chords and so on. I play through a Line6 box using Reason.

But my question is about the notes on a guitar. On a piano, there's only one place you can play a high C. One key...one note. I'm noticing on a guitar you can play the exact same note, same octave on many different places on the neck. So, when you're playing lead (one note vs. chord) you can play it at different spots.

So, what determines where you play the notes?

I'm probably asking that all wrong

The voices in my head tell me where to put my fingers. Sometimes they talk really slowly, or mumble.

Soñadora wrote:I'm a musician hack. Never formally trained. And I've never done any cover songs. But I have a good grasp of the theory. Several years ago I had a Fender Squier given to me. I've been watching videos and playing with chords and so on. I play through a Line6 box using Reason.

But my question is about the notes on a guitar. On a piano, there's only one place you can play a high C. One key...one note. I'm noticing on a guitar you can play the exact same note, same octave on many different places on the neck. So, when you're playing lead (one note vs. chord) you can play it at different spots.

So, what determines where you play the notes?

I'm probably asking that all wrong

Umm... yes. That's the short answer, anyway.

I am a hack also, so consider you're getting a hack answer here, then wait for Tim or Paul or Bob or someone else to give a dissertation on Music Theory. Perhaps me answering and you reading in Hackenese will actually be of some benefit to your learning...

Yes, you can play the same note in different places/ strings on the fretboard; though, the same note sounded on a heavier or lighter string will have slightly different qualities. When I play, these qualities are usually described using terms like, "buzz", "hum", "slap", and "WTF note did you just try to play??"

So, it's a little about the quality of the sound you want to make (if you know what you're doing, and can make that intentional difference), but I'd say it's really most decided by the "context" -- what notes/ chords are you looking to play next? To some extent, you play the notes wherever it is most convenient and makes it easiest to get from the note you played just before, to the note you're going to play next.

Make any sense at all?

I'm with Gerry, the tone is different. Play an open E string, then the same note on the b string (really different tone), then play it further up the neck on the g string, different again.

As a game, figure out all the ways you can play an e-major chord. It'll amaze you and they all sound a little different.

Yep. Tone, and fingering. The fingering is often the determining factor, and this depends on where you are coming from (on the fretboard) and where you want to go. There's a lot of muscle memory that happens, where for a certain transition or pattern you always go from "here" to "there". This is useful, since it's one less thing to think about ("When you think, you stink"), but don't become trapped by it. Play around. You might discover a better way; one that works, or sounds, better than the one that your muscles are telling you to play.

For chording, look into alternate patterns for playing the same chord. It's pretty amazing how many different ways there are to play an E-Major (for example), and they all sound different. These different, but the same, chords can dramatically change the feel of a song.

Sometimes I play an oddball fingering just because I feel like moving around on the neck. This affects my mental state, and my mental state affects my playing. Once this stuff gets into your blood, you will discover that you are playing with all sorts of little nuances. These are the unique details that make you sound like "you".

Anyway, start out simple, and have fun! You will never stop learning new things.

Great answers...I especially appreciate Hackenese

That's what I noticed too. Plus the action is different, of course. If you play a lot of notes on one string, you can get a cool portamento thing going on. And yeah, I notice the dynamics of the strings are different -the big fat string is much beefier than that little skinny one, technically speaking of course.

I'm currently working on Another Epic Song. If I ever finish it, I'll post it. I spent most of yesterday playing and my fingers hurt.

I've been using Reason since it first came out in 2001. Currently version 6. Some of the most amazing software I've ever used...EVER. Even better than SolidWorks!

yes to Gerry and Paul re: the last note and where you want to go next.
In addition, the techniques of using a "hammer on" or a "pull off" to get from one note to another will have an influence on where you play the notes and on which string. You tube has some excellent vids on these. A while back, I dropped using a flat pick because I wanted to start finger picking. Pretty soon, you realize that a melody or solo rif isn't simply a series of notes you find and play in sequence somewhere on the neck, but are embedded around the structure of the chords to the song. Therefore if you start by learning the chord sequence, and which version/position of the chord to play, you may find that the notes you want are already in a reasonably finger-efficient place to transition between them. There are always exceptions that may be related to tone and speed, flat picking versus finger picking, hammer on/off, etc.. and that's half the fun of exploring it.

Rick:
The technical term is called "position". " What position do I play that F in?"
As you move your hand up the neck you change "position". If you place your hand so that the first finger is on the 5th fret/first string (A) you are in the 5th position., 8th fret (C) 8th position.
In order to play a run in the most efficient manner you would probably try to stay within one specific position so you are not jumping around. That position would determine where you would play the note.
This is not something you think about while playing and a player will constantly slide from one position to another. However, if you were to take classical guitar lessons the subject of "position" would be very important and as I said used to optimize the efficieny of your fingering.

Thanks Bob and Tim.

Tim, I especially liked your description about the notes being 'embedded'. It's interesting that when it comes to playing an instrument, the guitar is probably the most popular. Quite an ingenious invention really.

Rick:
I think the beauty and appeal of the guitar comes from the fact that you can sound pretty good pretty quickly on the guitar, as opposed to the violin, saxophone, trombone, banjo, oboe, french horn etc. I am giving guitar lessons to my neighbor's granddaughter. My approach to how it "must" be done has softened over the years.

Yes,"embedded in the chords" is one way to look at it but that can be a limiting approach while being probably the best place to start. It's all the little connecting notes that make the music less pedantic, less predictable and more interesting. I am always looking for those notes. It appears they are in hiding much of the time. If you ever want to see someone with total mastery of the entire neck, where the neck is just a color palette of notes, go see Tuck and Patty. Tuck is a whizz on the guitar. I took Spike to see them at Jazz Alley.

Tim and I have a lot of fun playing together.

For shits and giggles, if you go here you can hear me play lead on my Super 400 when I was 18 years old. Not sure anyone ever made a Super 400 sound that bad.
The bass player and I are both 18 and the other three guys are 15 years old. We entered a "battle of the bands" in Seattle with 60 other bands and we won.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_AgImu9tj0

WOW - Tuck & Patty, there's a name from the past. I have to believe that they're as old as I am... scary thought.... Their name brings back some great memories....

Bob, that was kickass. Thanks for the smile this afternoon.

Rick:
No problem. It makes me smile too. Kids having fun in far more simple world than we will in today.
Could you imagine sending your 15 tear old off in a van to tour the PNW without a chaperone today?

Today I can listen to that raw music with pride.

Beau, Tuck and Patti met in 1978. Ann & I used to see them every chance we could in Northampton, MA at the Iron Horse when we were in math school. We miss them but they seem to play mostly overseas these days.

Bob, Tuck is an animal on guitar. He's a whole band except for a singer like Patti.

Keith:
I agree. Tuck takes it to a new level . He seems to see the fingerboard as a palette wherr he can pick any color he likes.
If I listen to SRV. I think, "There's a good guitar player." But he plays licks., patterns. And he repeats those patterns. He does it very,very well.
Tuck don't play no licks.
Tuck don't play no patterns.
Tuck just plays what he hears in his head.

I had to do some digging but now realize that I used to watch Tuck & Patti at the old Stanford Theater on University Ave. in Palo Alto in about '82 or '83. It was a great time for me. I had started my first company, was working my ass off, but having a ball. I had just bought my '81 Moore-24 and we were ripping up the race course with it. My back didn't hurt in those days, life was good.

It is so great to see people keep on keeping on at music.

Beau:
What else would you have them do? Retire to their ranch?
They make music to make a living. I'm not sure it's an elective choice.
It's not an easy life but Tuck and Patty do it very well. I'm certain you will see them keep doing it for some time.
You have to eat you know.

Bob,

I do understand that they need to eat, but after spending 6 years as a bass player in LA as a young man I find it amazing that they can keep it up. It's a tough life and while it's wonderful that they can keep going, I don't think it gets easier as one gets older. All but one of the guys I knew in LA in the late '60s and early '70s are doing something that has nothing to do with music. They couldn't make it work. I guess none of us was good enough to make the life easy enough or we were all just too soft. We became software engineers, doctors, chiropractors, any number of much easier jobs.

I was being genuine when I said it was great that there were keeping on; so few were able to.

Beau

This the song I'm working on. Just the first 3 minutes. The guitar track will be re-recorded. Made some mistakes and there will be much, much more guitar in the rest of the song.

And you'll hear a lot of compression. This isn't mastered yet and frankly the mastering in Reason is pretty intimidating, but I intend to figure it out.

Enjoy...

http://sail2live.com/convurgent/music/reasonism.mp3

and this is my 'studio'

Holy bass cleff Batman!

Beau:
I can't believe it. Valis/Paul and Keith have both been bugging me for months to take our "all bass,,all the time" act on the road. Now Beau we find out you are a bass player also. That means a front line up of four bass players. I'm sure we can find a drummer somewhere around here. Jerry would make a good drummer. He has the look. That's the important part. We can use your Cayanne Beau, travel in style. We can spend hours on the road discussing profound, universally critical subjects. Like all bass players do.

I'm thinking for a name maybe BALLAST. "Kind of says it all."

Did you hear the one about the bass player who locked his keys in the car?
It took him half an hour to get the drummer out.

Rick:
Your composition is very good. I thoroughly enjoyed it. You surprised me. I heard it like a sound track from a very dark German movie. I look forward to hearing more.

Bob, we need to do it. But first, we have to practice "Big Bottom" by Spinal Tap. OK, maybe not practice, but we've got to play it.

Nice job Rick. It got a little too techno-drumming for me in spots, but that's probably just me. I like your guitar tone, it adds a nice flavor to the composition.

Q: How many bass players does it take to change a light bulb?
A1: None. The keyboard player can do it with his left hand.
A2: None. We don't need any lights on that side of the stage anyway.

Have I said how much I like playing bass? Haven't played in way too long.

I'm in Helsinki now, where the harbor is frozen over and people are walking to the islands. Most of the yachts are hauled out, but there are some big wooden ships that are frozen in. The big ferrys are still going in and out, but they don't give the channels a chance to freeze thick. There are icebreakers in the harbor, but I don't think they have been needed. I might get a chance to take some harbor photos. We had some -30C overnight temperatures, but today it's probably +1C. It's bad when the snow melts, then freezes -- really slippery walking.

WOW and All Bass Bad Ass (ABBA - no that's been used) band.

Do you know why some of us play bass, we only have to play one note at a time..... (I like the joke 'bout getting the drummer outa the car.)

Bob, I'm sorry to say that the same robbery that got my two good bikes last year also got my 1967 Fender P-Bass. I haven't replaced it, so if we're going to hit the road as ABBA I'll have to buy and axe someplace - then I'll have to actually practice so I don't embarrass myself. I was pondering getting one of the gigantic Mexican basses you see in mariachi bands, a guitarron, that way we wouldn't need to pay for electricity.

Sons, I like that piece. A buddy uses various "distortions", like auto-tune, failed compression math, etc... as "special effects" and sometimes I really like what happens. I can't lay my hands on it, but someplace I've got a piece of his music in which he ran a violin through autotune with some really fun results.

Beau:
I recall you posting about losing your P bass earlier.

That's not all bad news though. Now you can buy a Jazz Bass and enjoy the tonal coloration that comes from two pickups, and a far nicer neck. I've been playing a reissue '62 Jazz bass for the last 25 years. We have bonded.

You know I have pretty small hands and a jazz bass neck has always been easier to play for me. I do miss that old P-bass, we had done a lot of good and a few really bad things together. As you say, Bob, we had bonded.

We've got a good local music store - I think I'll swing by and play a bit on a J-bass - see if it "fits".

Beau:
I do not recommend the '62 re-issue. There are reaons they modified the design, good reasons. I can't do a neck adjustment without removing the neck. It's only four big screws but is a pain in the ass. My neck is a noodle, I love it, but it does require some adjustment say once every two years. I have a P Bass Deluxe also with twin pickups but that neck feels like a club to me. And I have big hands.

If I were looking to buy a new bass I'd be looking at the Warwick line. Max bought a Warwick fretless. I have borrowed it and played it a lot. I love that axe. I'd look at the fretted Warwick before I bought another Fender. The sound is amazing. I see a lot of pros playing them. I'd buy one in a heartbeat but I have so many miles and memories with my old Jazz bass that I'd hate to put it out to pasture. I know where every wrong note is on that axe and there are many left to play . At my age it is no longer about the gear.

I'll be your roadie. Kim, can I borrow your van?

JoeP wrote:I'll be your roadie. Kim, can I borrow your van?

Damn, I was going for the roadie job.
I actually did roadie for Gentle Giant when they toured Quebec...not a very good band, unfortunately.

Ish wrote:

JoeP wrote:I'll be your roadie. Kim, can I borrow your van?

Damn, I was going for the roadie job.
I actually did roadie for Gentle Giant when they toured Quebec...not a very good band, unfortunately.

I think there's room for another roadie Ish, especially an experienced one like you.

I think we are going to need a bigger van.
Damn! We can tour with, Ish, our own spiritual advisor.

Has anyone invited Greevs over? He could get us a 16 wheeler.
I'll drive.

I like it. I like the idea very much. Beau's Cayenne will be a big step up from my mom's '74 Ford Country Squire wagon, although I'll bet the Ford can carry more gear. In my day a P-bass was the axe to have. Now it's a J-bass. I'd never thought about the difference in neck shape. My P-bass is a '76, I think, bought new.

Geddy Lee of Rush switched from a Rickenbacker to a J-bass, which for me is a big endorsement.

Is anyone into Esperanza Spaulding? I've been meaning to listen to her.



Paul, just the lyrics make Spinal Tap's Big Bottom a masterpiece:

My baby fits me like a flesh tuxedo
I'd like to sink her with my pink torpedo

Big bottom, big bottom
Talk about bum cakes, my girl's got 'em