Sat phone recommendations?

[TheOffice]

Globalstar no longer offers a pre-paid plan. I have not been able to find any info n whether an Iridium Go will be able to take advantage of the new satellites. I need a sat phone for the Bermuda race. Should I just rent? Anyone know anything about the Go and new birds?

[TheOffice]

According the SatPhoneStore, the Go will remain around 2.4 kbps, with new hardware coming later.

Recommendations for a rental?

[LarryHoward]

Calling Rob.

Joel,

My Sat phone usage is limited to well integrated, but very expensive INMARSAT and the installation Rob had on Sparky. Prior to the 2015 M-B, we had some issues that the tech had to come in to fix and Rob spent a lot of pre-race time getting it up and working. Once it was, it was a huge asset in letting us download GRIBS and get them into Expedition and we were able to do a lot of weather routing that avoided the worst of the remnant low that came across the fleet. I'ma fan of the integrated system.

If you rent, you'll meet the requirements of the SI's but I would expect you won't have the integration necessary to download GRIBS. On the other hand, rental is probably the most cost effective option. I think we will continue to see rapid change in Sat phone tech over the next few years. The voice was great to have (and meets the requirement) and got us a new head sent ahead to RHADC. Data was more valuable to us during the race as the weather changed both for tactical planning and the reassurance that we were avoiding the worst of the conditions.

[TheOffice]

Larry

I’ve never had the luxury of downloading GRIBS over sat phone so by the time I get to Bermuda I’m working off a 4 day old forecast. If I rent a Go that might change but I can’t count on it. That’s going to be my best case scenario.

Joel

[Rob McAlpine]

I left the Iridium on Sparky since George left his Iridium on Restive, and his new boat came with one, I believe. I guess I wasn't thinking ahead that it could have been of use to you. Sorry.

I like the docking station setup with external antenna, it allows you to converse below easily. In any kind of weather they are a pain to use on deck due to wind noise, but it can be done.

I believe that Newport-Bermuda requires you to check in via sat phone email. They did when I nav'd on Momentum 2 years ago, plus the organizers send out regular fleetwide notices that you want to be able to get.

For data downloads the Iridium is snails pace, and it usually takes several efforts to get a successful grib download, even though the files are small. This is just reality, the satellites are old. GRIBs are hugely useful. Wind GRIB's are quite small. The RTOFS Hi Res current models are MUCH bigger data sets, and can help with sea state predictions, but may be problematic to download via Iridium. More likely, you'll get 15 minutes into a download and lose your connection and have to start from scratch. If your boat is large enough to have a guy whose ONLY job is navigation, this is a good use of his time. Most aren't. Current does not changes as rapidly as wind, so a 3 day old Gulf stream prediction may be OK. If the area has been overcast a bunch, Gulf stream forecasts are only good in macro. Beware of gurus making current interpretations based on sketchy data.

Restive has a better setup than Sparky, with networked MFD's above and below, all of her electronics were replaced for the 2016 season with top end B&G stuff. It's going to take some sorting out to get myself up to speed.

Are you doing A-B or Npt-B?

[TheOffice]

Rob, no worries!

I'm doing A2B. N2B requires an always on sat phone and external antenna. A2B only requires a sat phone with a daily check in by phone in addition to the tracker.

I learned my lesson about Gulf Stream predictions my first A2B. Cost me 3 places and a podium when we chased an eddie 4 days out. I don't chase eddies anymore. Luckily we hit the main part of the stream on day 2 offshore, so we know what to expect even if our last forecast is downloaded when we leave the Bay.

I've got an MFD at the helm, a PC at the nav station and an iPad. Just need to get data to them.
Considered adding Sirrius weather. Looks good in theory. I added it to The Office, then sold the boat. It was an older unit and is probably no longer supported. Took a lot of time to get it working, never really used it.

Joel

[kdh]

I'd rent an Iridium GO with a marine antenna from SatPhoneStore if I were racing offshore. I've used this setup, and it's quite workable.

However, of course, satellite communications are going to be expensive or slow, take your pick. Wind and current models can be downloaded over the GO, but it's nothing like just visiting a web page.

HYCOM/GFS or Mercator/ECMWF are the modern sources for ocean currents, both available through PredictWind.

[BeauV]

Do any of you use Marine/Ham SSB Radios for downloading GRIB files? I know you need a sat phone for the check in, but I'm pretty sure that a SSB will get you the weather info quicker and easier.

[TheOffice]

Beau,

I have an SSB, but I've never been able to download anything useful. Maybe too much interference at the dock and too little patience at sea on my part.

Joel

[Rob McAlpine]

Do any of you use Marine/Ham SSB Radios for downloading GRIB files? I know you need a sat phone for the check in, but I'm pretty sure that a SSB will get you the weather info quicker and easier.

That requires a Pactor type modem, a fairly expensive device in itself. For just wind GRIBs, the sat phone system works pretty well. Properly set up, you basically tell Expedition "get a GRIB" and it dials the phone, gets the GRIB you specify, hangs up.

The problem is that, if you ask for a large data file, Ike the RTOFS hi res current interpretation for the western North Atlantic, it's just a big ass file, and takes a fairly long continuous connect time. My electronic/expedition specialist told me that SSB downloads are no better with large data files.

[TheOffice]

For the return, I will likely just phone a friend on the Sat phone.

BTW if you have not tried fastseas.com for weather and routing check it out. Last time it agreed with Expedition's route, and its free if you can download it.

[kdh]

Do any of you use Marine/Ham SSB Radios for downloading GRIB files? I know you need a sat phone for the check in, but I'm pretty sure that a SSB will get you the weather info quicker and easier.

That requires a Pactor type modem, a fairly expensive device in itself. For just wind GRIBs, the sat phone system works pretty well. Properly set up, you basically tell Expedition "get a GRIB" and it dials the phone, gets the GRIB you specify, hangs up.

The problem is that, if you ask for a large data file, Ike the RTOFS hi res current interpretation for the western North Atlantic, it's just a big ass file, and takes a fairly long continuous connect time. My electronic/expedition specialist told me that SSB downloads are no better with large data files.

Rob, from what I've been able to gather the RTOFS is total fucking garbage. Not worth the trouble anyway. YMMV.

[Ish]

We need Paul (Valis) to chime in here. I'll ping.

[VALIS]

Beau, Iridium is significantly faster and easier than ham/ssb for data downloads. I use Iridium with XGate to get roughly 100KBytes of WX data in about ten minutes connect time. (The data is GRIBs, and synoptic WFAX charts, all via Saildocs). The Sailmail time restrictions would not let me grab that much daily data, at least not with my Pactor-3 modem. Amateur radio Winlink has no time limits (beyond those dictated by courtesy), but I've had a harder time making Winlink connections than with Sailmail.

Caveats: My gear is a generation or two old: Iridium 9575 phone, and Icom 710 with Pactor-3 modem. There is a faster Pactor modem out now, and new Iridium gear, but I don't think that these change the equation that much. Iridium is introducing faster service, but I don't know the details. I'm using the "pay for minutes in advance" Iridium plan, but some newer data-optimized Iridium gear has perhaps better plans. XGate may not be the best solution these days, but it works for me. Sailmail can also be used with Iridium, and I understand that the performance is (nearly) as good as XGate.

I haven't discussed the cost yet. Initial setup: Radio is probably more expensive. In use: Iridium costs more. The cheapest way to go is a ham radio and the free software "WINMOR" modem, which gives you approx Pactor-2 speeds. A faster open-source ham software modem is under development, but for ease and speed, I think Iridium will continue to be the way to go. Of course the big guys use very expensive high-speed satellite connections using stabilized dishes in domes. I'm not going to be a customer for that. You want an external antenna for Iridium. The built-in antenna usually works, but not as well as an external one, especially belowdeck. Iridium will burn much less power than a radio solution.

[VALIS]

My gear is a generation or two old: Iridium 9575 phone[...]

Which is why I haven't chimed in before now. The new Iridium gear looks very interesting, but at least some of it doesn't appear to meet my needs, and I'm in no hurry to upgrade. Unless, of course, it's really cool stuff.

[BeauV]

Thanks, Paul!!

We're considering a set-up for MAYAN in a planning 2019 cruise. She has a SSB, but adding all the rest and "fixing" the installation so it works well is going to cost $$$s.

On a separate question: I guess I don't get why the weather fax files are so large. What I look at is mostly white with a few black lines. It should compress like crazy. It must be the density of markings on a GRIB file, or I'm probably showing my ignorance of what's actually in a GRIB file.

[VALIS]

Beau, WFAX != GRIB. The WFAX files I get from Saildocs are compressed even more heavily than the GIF files you can download from the NOAA website (such as this one, which is 226 KByte): http://www.opc.ncep.noaa.gov/shtml/P_24hrsfc.gif
The Saildocs version is about half that size.

A typical grib may be only 10K -- more later, I've got to run.

[BeauV]

Beau, WFAX != GRIB. The WFAX files I get from Saildocs are compressed even more heavily than the GIF files you can download from the NOAA website (such as this one, which is 226 KByte): http://www.opc.ncep.noaa.gov/shtml/P_24hrsfc.gif
The Saildocs version is about half that size.

A typical grib may be only 10K -- more later, I've got to run.

Paul, I found a heap of stuff on GRIB files here: The Weather Window I'm reading it now. I'll know a bit more in a few hours. Thanks for the help.

[VALIS]

Paul, I found a heap of stuff on GRIB files here: The Weather Window I'm reading it now. I'll know a bit more in a few hours. Thanks for the help.

That looks like good info. About that WFAX file I posted a link to -- ignore that. NOAA has much smaller versions of the same synoptic chart, and the Saildocs versions are about half the size of *those*. But a couple of these will still use up your daily Sailmail SSB allotment. With Iridium, it's not a problem.

So now that we know the difference between GRIBs and WFAX charts, you want to figure out a strategy for getting the data you need. On my Hawaii / mainland runs I usually download a fairly large area GRIB on a two-degree grid to keep the size down. I get surface pressure and wind forecasts for 6, 12, 18, 24, 36, 48, 72, and 96 hours. This gives me a "big picture" look at what's going on, with the time steps getting larger over time since the diminishing accuracy doesn't warrant getting much detail. I also get a fine-grained grid/time forecast that covers where I will be sailing over the next 48 hours. The probable accuracy makes this detail useful for fine-tuning our route. I've been using Expedition for the WX routing, but OpenCPN seems to be getting pretty good for this as well. I may also get 120, 144, 168, 192 hour GRIB forecasts to give the WX router program something to work with. The default for routing a long passage is "hold the conditions of the last forecast", and I figure that even the questionable accuracy of the extended forecast is better than my guess would be. I'm not good enough of an analyst to make use of the the 500 mb pressure data, so I don't look at that. I will also get the wave-height GRIB data if that's going to be a factor.

I also get at least one 24-hour human-annotated WFAX surface forecast, to show developing systems that may not appear on the GRIBS, or fronts and troughs that are worrying me. I may get text forecasts as well, especially if I am approaching land in brisk conditions.

I get all this data via email from Saildocs.

And I do my own sanity / comfort-level check on any route generated by the computer. If the forecast looks squishy or conditions vague, I will tweak my polars and do a quick monte carlo run to see how the routes shift. I usually go for "cautious", rather than "aggressive". And of course, we always sail in the weather we've got.

There are services that can make this all easier, but doing it this way means I don't have to worry about the "outside assistance" rule when racing, and it's actually pretty easy anyway.

Of course, you can always ask Stan what he recommends!

[kdh]

For the return, I will likely just phone a friend on the Sat phone.

BTW if you have not tried fastseas.com for weather and routing check it out. Last time it agreed with Expedition's route, and its free if you can download it.

Route optimization from a mathematical perspective is easy. There aren't likely to be meaningful differences among optimization runs that aren't due to data. You know, garbage in, garbage out and all that. My experience is that ocean current models are the most critical to getting usable routes.

In the end for a race like Marion to Bermuda sailors seem to ignore the math models and go by what's worked historically or the seat of their pants.

The best example is the last race. For weeks before the race and for the most basic of reasons, light air at the end of the race that favored being as close as possible to the island when the wind died, sailing to the E of the rhumb line was the best strategy. Yet everyone "knows" that's a bad strategy. Most stayed to the suboptimal W.