Scantlings

I used to have one of these,

https://youtu.be/ysLoxsfeavQ

It was in better condition than this one, but some of those rust areas are very familiar.

After seeing the video, I am glad I didn’t embark on a full restoration. The decision wasn’t that hard after driving it for a couple of years of sundays, it was a very scary car.

Pretty but scary, it had the old swing axle rear wheels, weighed only half a ton, and could really pump out some torque from that engine.

Apart from the legendary rear oversteer, the car had such a short wheelbase you could lose the rear end dragging down a straight road.

Olaf Hart wrote:I used to have one of these,

https://youtu.be/ysLoxsfeavQ

It was in better condition than this one, but some of those rust areas are very familiar.

After seeing the video, I am glad I didn’t embark on a full restoration. The decision wasn’t that hard after driving it for a couple of years of sundays, it was a very scary car.

Pretty but scary, it had the old swing axle rear wheels, weighed only half a ton, and could really pump out some torque from that engine.

Apart from the legendary rear oversteer, the car had such a short wheelbase you could lose the rear end dragging down a straight road.

My 1969 912 was the second of th “901 series body”, so the long wheel base version with torsion bat trailing arms rather than swing axles. The steel was similarly rust prone (I think it was 1975 when Porsche shifter to galvanised pan and other critical sections. Handling was better and stable in a straight line up to the 120 mph I observed. Very quick in the twisty bits but still very prone to the famous trailing throttle oversteer. I did an engine, interior and glass out bare metal restoration and sometimes thought I was insane about 50% finished.

When I drive my Son’s 2006 Carrera S, I marvel at how far the “engineer’s sports car” has come from a refinement and luxury standpoint. The vestiges of TSO remain but you have to really try to get into trouble now.

Once in a while I consider getting a Beck 904.
Then I come to my senses,
only to slip back into insanity on occasion.

kimbottles wrote:Once in a while I consider getting a Beck 904.
Then I come to my senses,
only to slip back into insanity on occasion.

Beck's are massively cool cars. Totally impracticable, but cool.

LarryHoward wrote:

kimbottles wrote:Once in a while I consider getting a Beck 904.
Then I come to my senses,
only to slip back into insanity on occasion.

Beck's are massively cool cars. Totally impracticable, but cool.

You have described the problem very well.......

Serious Porsche folks hated it at the time and really hate it now, but we used to make dune buggies out of those old 356s. They were much better as parts cars than the VWs which most folks used. If you have ever driven a Baja Bug, imagine the same sort of thing starting with a 356. Also, you could easily get to nearly 200hp from a heavily modified motor. We only built one with a roller bearing crank, which was pretty damed unreliable. Probably our fault as we didn't really know how to put that complex a motor together.

Each year we'd built two or three of these hacked 356s and sell them to amateurs who wanted to go off road racing. They were NUTS but insanely fun. By making the rear tired really large and the fronts comparatively small, the thing became a great deal more controllable. We did cut one up and turn the motor around, if you flip the trans/diff you can make a mid-engine car out of it. We never got it fully sorted. But building what was really the predecessor of the 912/4 was a heap of fun! Of course, we were just young guys with some wrenches and a torch. Once the real 912/6 arrived there was no point.

Good times.

I did briefly own a 1977 Turbo.... I nearly died in that thing a few times. Years later I had Larry's experience when I bought a 996 Turbo Cab. I couldn't believe anyone could make such a terrible design drive so well! Obviously, the motor should not be hanging off the rear end of the car, but somehow Porsche has made it work quite well. Of course the current generation of Boxster/Cayman is much better car - motor in the right place, and if you haven't seen a RUF tuned 918 you're really missing a wonderful car.

The latest Autoweek has a review of the 2020 911 https://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews/2020-porsche-911-first-drive-legend-gets-even-better.
It's quite a car but I would rather have the Beck 550 Spyder replica with a Subaru FA20 (BRZ/FR-S) motor.

JoeP wrote:The latest Autoweek has a review of the 2020 911 https://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews/2020-porsche-911-first-drive-legend-gets-even-better.
It's quite a car but I would rather have the Beck 550 Spyder replica with a Subaru FA20 (BRZ/FR-S) motor.

you need the FA 20F (Turbo) motor with 268 HP in that Beck, not the 197 HP FA 20D out of one of the "twins." Or go for home market JDM 300 HP variant F20F from the Legacy 2.0 GT.

BeauV wrote:Serious Porsche folks hated it at the time and really hate it now, but we used to make dune buggies out of those old 356s. They were much better as parts cars than the VWs which most folks used. If you have ever driven a Baja Bug, imagine the same sort of thing starting with a 356. Also, you could easily get to nearly 200hp from a heavily modified motor. We only built one with a roller bearing crank, which was pretty damed unreliable. Probably our fault as we didn't really know how to put that complex a motor together.

Each year we'd built two or three of these hacked 356s and sell them to amateurs who wanted to go off road racing. They were NUTS but insanely fun. By making the rear tired really large and the fronts comparatively small, the thing became a great deal more controllable. We did cut one up and turn the motor around, if you flip the trans/diff you can make a mid-engine car out of it. We never got it fully sorted. But building what was really the predecessor of the 912/4 was a heap of fun! Of course, we were just young guys with some wrenches and a torch. Once the real 912/6 arrived there was no point.

Good times.

I did briefly own a 1977 Turbo.... I nearly died in that thing a few times. Years later I had Larry's experience when I bought a 996 Turbo Cab. I couldn't believe anyone could make such a terrible design drive so well! Obviously, the motor should not be hanging off the rear end of the car, but somehow Porsche has made it work quite well. Of course the current generation of Boxster/Cayman is much better car - motor in the right place, and if you haven't seen a RUF tuned 918 you're really missing a wonderful car.

Beau. Come on. You know that Ferry Porsche put the engine in the back because that is what God himself intended.

LarryHoward wrote:...snip....

Beau. Come on. You know that Ferry Porsche put the engine in the back because that is what God himself intended.

LOL!!! I always heard it was so Ferry could come out of the corners backwards on command!

LarryHoward wrote:

BeauV wrote:Serious Porsche folks hated it at the time and really hate it now, but we used to make dune buggies out of those old 356s. They were much better as parts cars than the VWs which most folks used. If you have ever driven a Baja Bug, imagine the same sort of thing starting with a 356. Also, you could easily get to nearly 200hp from a heavily modified motor. We only built one with a roller bearing crank, which was pretty damed unreliable. Probably our fault as we didn't really know how to put that complex a motor together.

Each year we'd built two or three of these hacked 356s and sell them to amateurs who wanted to go off road racing. They were NUTS but insanely fun. By making the rear tired really large and the fronts comparatively small, the thing became a great deal more controllable. We did cut one up and turn the motor around, if you flip the trans/diff you can make a mid-engine car out of it. We never got it fully sorted. But building what was really the predecessor of the 912/4 was a heap of fun! Of course, we were just young guys with some wrenches and a torch. Once the real 912/6 arrived there was no point.

Good times.

I did briefly own a 1977 Turbo.... I nearly died in that thing a few times. Years later I had Larry's experience when I bought a 996 Turbo Cab. I couldn't believe anyone could make such a terrible design drive so well! Obviously, the motor should not be hanging off the rear end of the car, but somehow Porsche has made it work quite well. Of course the current generation of Boxster/Cayman is much better car - motor in the right place, and if you haven't seen a RUF tuned 918 you're really missing a wonderful car.

Beau. Come on. You know that Ferry Porsche put the engine in the back because that is what God himself intended.

They went in the back of his tanks, so why not his sports cars?

Great line, Jamie!

Having stuffed a motor into the back of a VW and a Porsche, I can say with certainty that you make the thing a two-passenger car. If memory serves, there was a tax on two-seater cars to discourage wasteful automobiles! Thus, the rear seat in a 911 which not even a 5-year-old could use.

It's a lot like the European tax on bedrooms in a home. The definition of a "bedroom" was a room with a closet. Thus, to this day, a lot of European homes have no closets and everyone buys cupboards or armoires.

My favorite example of this sort of nonsense was the 3-wheeled Morgan. It was taxed as a motorcycle vs a car and paid a much lower rate. When the tax law changed in the '30s Morgan immediately started to build 4-wheeled cars.

My brother’s circa 1500 house in England has some windows bricked up to avoid some of the
“Window tax” that existed apparently in the 1600 or 1700’s!

kimbottles wrote:My brother’s circa 1500 house in England has some windows bricked up to avoid some of the
“Window tax” that existed apparently in the 1600 or 1700’s!

Apparently that tax led to the phrase “ daylight robbery”

LarryHoward wrote:

JoeP wrote:The latest Autoweek has a review of the 2020 911 https://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews/2020-porsche-911-first-drive-legend-gets-even-better.
It's quite a car but I would rather have the Beck 550 Spyder replica with a Subaru FA20 (BRZ/FR-S) motor.

you need the FA 20F (Turbo) motor with 268 HP in that Beck, not the 197 HP FA 20D out of one of the "twins." Or go for home market JDM 300 HP variant F20F from the Legacy 2.0 GT.

Not a big fan of turbos but a mild tune to add 10-20 hp and fix the torque dip at 4,000 rpm would be nice.

JoeP wrote:

LarryHoward wrote:

JoeP wrote:The latest Autoweek has a review of the 2020 911 https://autoweek.com/article/car-reviews/2020-porsche-911-first-drive-legend-gets-even-better.
It's quite a car but I would rather have the Beck 550 Spyder replica with a Subaru FA20 (BRZ/FR-S) motor.

you need the FA 20F (Turbo) motor with 268 HP in that Beck, not the 197 HP FA 20D out of one of the "twins." Or go for home market JDM 300 HP variant F20F from the Legacy 2.0 GT.

Not a big fan of turbos but a mild tune to add 10-20 hp and fix the torque dip at 4,000 rpm would be nice.

I haven’t been a fan of turbos but they seem to have sorted out the lag and other inherent shortcomings so I’ve come around. Still love the song of big block Detroit iron though.

An EJ207 is the ticket. Not USDM, so a little harder to source. Revs to 8k with a twin-scroll turbo and not over-square bore. There is a reason all the Subaru race cars use it as a starting point. Available at reasonable-ish prices and accessible to moderate skilled people to maintain and tune.

LarryHoward wrote:

JoeP wrote:Not a big fan of turbos but a mild tune to add 10-20 hp and fix the torque dip at 4,000 rpm would be nice.

I haven’t been a fan of turbos but they seem to have sorted out the lag and other inherent shortcomings so I’ve come around. Still love the song of big block Detroit iron though.

I just got back from the Porsche Experience Center in Atlanta where I got out on the track and various circuits in a GT3. Really fun, I've already made plans to go back for a few days with a buddy.

They had the 2020 "992" 911 there. Looks more modern than the previous--they did a good job with the styling. My current car is a naturally aspirated 991 Carrera S, but the face lifted version and future versions other than the 992 GT3 will be turboed. Emissions regulations are to blame. I'm still deciding on a GT3 Touring or another Carrera S for the next car. The modern turbos have much better lag characteristics but it's still there and the sound suffers but they bring the torque lower in the rev range.

kdh wrote:

LarryHoward wrote:

JoeP wrote:Not a big fan of turbos but a mild tune to add 10-20 hp and fix the torque dip at 4,000 rpm would be nice.

I haven’t been a fan of turbos but they seem to have sorted out the lag and other inherent shortcomings so I’ve come around. Still love the song of big block Detroit iron though.

I just got back from the Porsche Experience Center in Atlanta where I got out on the track and various circuits in a GT3. Really fun, I've already made plans to go back for a few days with a buddy.

They had the 2020 "992" 911 there. Looks more modern than the previous--they did a good job with the styling. My current car is a naturally aspirated 991 Carrera S, but the face lifted version and future versions other than the 992 GT3 will be turboed. Emissions regulations are to blame. I'm still deciding on a GT3 Touring or another Carrera S for the next car. The modern turbos have much better lag characteristics but it's still there and the sound suffers but they bring the torque lower in the rev range.

You know you want the 918!

Batteries eliminate turbot lag

BeauV wrote:

kdh wrote:

LarryHoward wrote:

JoeP wrote:Not a big fan of turbos but a mild tune to add 10-20 hp and fix the torque dip at 4,000 rpm would be nice.

I haven’t been a fan of turbos but they seem to have sorted out the lag and other inherent shortcomings so I’ve come around. Still love the song of big block Detroit iron though.

I just got back from the Porsche Experience Center in Atlanta where I got out on the track and various circuits in a GT3. Really fun, I've already made plans to go back for a few days with a buddy.

They had the 2020 "992" 911 there. Looks more modern than the previous--they did a good job with the styling. My current car is a naturally aspirated 991 Carrera S, but the face lifted version and future versions other than the 992 GT3 will be turboed. Emissions regulations are to blame. I'm still deciding on a GT3 Touring or another Carrera S for the next car. The modern turbos have much better lag characteristics but it's still there and the sound suffers but they bring the torque lower in the rev range.

You know you want the 918!

Batteries eliminate turbot lag

Ferrari are going hybrid with their mid-engined V8. The next V8 will be a twin-turboed V6 with electric, and a "big brother" V8 hybrid that will list for $500k or so.

Anyone seen the pics of the new F8 Tributo, likely to be the last without an electric motor? Introduced at Geneva. They've come a long way from the Pininfarina look. Not to my taste, looks like a body kit to me.

I've never been fond of the origami look in body styles. I know that designers can now form metal and carbon into those kinky shapes, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

BTW, we took Misty-The-Wonder-Dog for a walk yesterday and had a friend pull over in his California Spyder (a real one) and give the doggy a thrill by revving the motor. That is such a SWEET SOUND!!!

Concherto in twelve

kimbottles wrote:Concherto in twelve

Timeless Pininfarina design, the quintessential California car.

The only Porsche that holds any allure for me would be a Panamera 4 of some stripe, and that would have to wait until my Acura RL is plumb worn out. I love looking at cool cars, especially Delahaye, Delage, Hispano-Suiza (Tulipwood Torpedo, anyone?), but have no desire to own one. For me, a car has to be comfy and reliable for the 465 mile drive to my home in Taos.

Keith,

Yes!! There was a time when the Daytona had developed a reputation for really crumby reliability and the 427 Cobra was utterly DOMINATING sports car racing when my Father was looking at buying a CA Spider. Slightly used, it was less expensive than a new Corvette!!! I so wish he'd bought the CA Spider. Not because I would now be driving it, but because he almost never did anything for himself, and true to form spent the money on my Mom and us kids. Instead, we found a used small block chevy engine and stuffed it into his 1954 Austin Healy. That was a CRAZY car to drive!

Larry,

I hear you. The Porsche line up just doesn't get my blood warm let alone boiling. Wednesday at the Harbor someone showed up in a perfect (Literally much better than new) 356-90 in black. It was amazing. It did still puke smoke and drip oil when he left.

Porsche is going electric with the Macan and the new Tacan. Won't have to worry about the engine in the back much longer.

TheOffice wrote:Porsche is going electric with the Macan and the new Tacan. Won't have to worry about the engine in the back much longer.

Yes, it's amazing to see the auto industry acting in the manner of the computer business, with respect to product strategy.

1) Someone does something innovative and it works.
2) Everyone denigrates what has been done in step 1
3) Everyone continues the denigration patter while starting skunkworks to catch up
4) Everyone announces they will have a much better version of what was done in step 1 within a few months.
5) The company which did step 1 announces a new/better/cheaper product because they've been working on it all along.
6) Everyone announces that their product will still be better than the product announced in Step 5, even though it won't.
7) The company which did steps 1 and 5 announces the product and it's a KILLER because they based the follow on upon real customer feedback, not competitive analysis or market surveys.
8) The laggard companies start to try and find ways to innovate and differentiate with their answer to the step 1 and 5 products.
9) The market leader extends their lead by continuing to announce new products which actually have the features customers really want.
10) Everyone returns to step 1 and we go around the loop again.

I've seen this play out over and over and over again.

So, The Tesla Model S was the step 1 product, the Model X was the step 5 product, and just when the regular automakers built a product that can compete with the Model X and area about to launch, the Model 3 hits its stride and Tesla becomes one of the top-selling automakers in the US regardless of price and market segment. Then they launch the Model Y.

Video here: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/15/1826 ... musk-video

This is a small SUV for $47,000 with the extra large battery pack (over 300 mi. range) and it goes from 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. Key to this product is that it just creams the $77,000+ Porsche Turbo Macan, with good range, zero emissions, and it is even faster in a straight line (Macan is 0-60 in 3.6 seconds).

Thus, Tesla has taken the industry through the loop at least three times and is still rolling along. The company has gone from 1 car built 11 years ago to 1,000,000 this year if they stay on track. Every one of those products was poopooed by the pundits - as the Model Y is being now. There are a LOT of pundits who are still eating crow about the Model 3 while continuing to sling the poopoo about the Model Y. This too is exactly the behavior of the industry analysts who entirely missed the iPod, iPhone and iPad as Apple crushed competitors.

BeauV wrote:Keith,

Yes!! There was a time when the Daytona had developed a reputation for really crumby reliability and the 427 Cobra was utterly DOMINATING sports car racing when my Father was looking at buying a CA Spider. Slightly used, it was less expensive than a new Corvette!!! I so wish he'd bought the CA Spider. Not because I would now be driving it, but because he almost never did anything for himself, and true to form spent the money on my Mom and us kids. Instead, we found a used small block chevy engine and stuffed it into his 1954 Austin Healy. That was a CRAZY car to drive!

Larry,

I hear you. The Porsche line up just doesn't get my blood warm let alone boiling. Wednesday at the Harbor someone showed up in a perfect (Literally much better than new) 356-90 in black. It was amazing. It did still puke smoke and drip oil when he left.

Beau,

That's because you have turned in to a full sized SUV/sedan kind of old fart

When did you last autocross the Morgan?

Slingin' the PooPoo. There's a song in there somewhere...

BeauV wrote:

TheOffice wrote:Porsche is going electric with the Macan and the new Tacan. Won't have to worry about the engine in the back much longer.

This is a small SUV for $47,000 with the extra large battery pack (over 300 mi. range) and it goes from 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. Key to this product is that it just creams the $77,000+ Porsche Turbo Macan, with good range, zero emissions, and it is even faster in a straight line (Macan is 0-60 in 3.6 seconds).

Thus, Tesla has taken the industry through the loop at least three times and is still rolling along. The company has gone from 1 car built 11 years ago to 1,000,000 this year if they stay on track. Every one of those products was poopooed by the pundits - as the Model Y is being now. There are a LOT of pundits who are still eating crow about the Model 3 while continuing to sling the poopoo about the Model Y. This too is exactly the behavior of the industry analysts who entirely missed the iPod, iPhone and iPad as Apple crushed competitors.

Model 3 deliveries went from 43,900 during Nov/Dec 2018 to 12,250 in Jan/Feb 2019. Porsche are scrambling to meet pre-ordered demand (mostly from Tesla owners) for the Taycan while Tesla hemorrhage cash, so much so that the first model Y is not promised (an Elon Musk promise, so subject to change) until the fall of 2020.

The Taycan has the world's first mass-production 800-volt battery pack, which will allow it to charge more than twice as fast as a Tesla at a Supercharger—adding about 240 miles in less than 15 minutes.

This is a critical time for Tesla's survival.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1120661_porsche-taycan-sold-out-for-a-yearto-mostly-tesla-drivers