New Family Hauler Needed

[Slick470]

Ok, it's time for a new car. I've been driving a 2007 Ford Exploder for the past 5 years or so and while it has needed the occasional bit of help at the shop, it's been ok. It has a huge amount of space including a 3rd row, it is comfortable, and it drives nice. It is a bit under powered and gets abysmal gas mileage. It isn't what I would have bought if I were looking from scratch but I got a great deal on a private sale. So lately, my local shop and I have been chasing an intermittent misfire and given its age and mileage, Sarah has deemed it untrustworthy and in need of retirement.

I've narrowed the misfire most-likely list down to a internally faulty injector or a bad upper intake gasket, which is probably a couple hours of labor and $60 in parts. Getting to both is about the same amount of effort, but I've been told not to bother and start looking at the replacement.

My requirements are pretty basic; 2019 or 2020 model year, SUV (no mini vans), 4WD or AWD, has a 3rd row option, decent gas mileage, reliable, and has enough power to get out of it's own way (most likely a V6). Most of the other stuff like safety features, and infotainment stuff seems to come along with most of the vehicles in this class that meet the above.

So, my short list is currently down to a Toyota 4Runner (my favorite, but not as practical and the lowest gas mileage of the bunch), Toyota Highlander, Subaru Ascent (doesn't meet the V6 rule, but it has a turbo and runs on regular gas), and Kia Telluride (surprised Sarah likes this one actually) . We already own a Toyota car which my wife loves a bit too much, but we don't have much experience with these specific Toyota models or any personal experience with Subaru or Kia.

I've looked and an mostly ruled out for various reasons: Another Explorer, Chevy Traverse, Kia Sorrento, Honda Pilot, VW Atlas, or any of the "premium" brands like Acura, Audi, Mercedes and the like. I haven't put much thought into the Nissan Pathfinder, or whatever the Hyundai option is.

I know a few of you have more current experience with Toyota's and Subaru's. Any thoughts, experiences, maintenance woes, things to look for, other cars I'm missing here? Appreciate any insights from the assembled group.

Oh, I've also considered trading in my old extended cab pickup and the explorer for a 4-door mid-sized pickup like a Tacoma, Ranger, or Colorado, but I lose the 3rd row option and I have a harder time taking the family AND the dog anywhere. So right now the plan is to replace the explorer and keep the pickup for pickup stuff.

Longshot option, replace explorer, truck, and Sarah's car with EV cars for daily drivers, and get a Mercedes 4x4 sprinter conversion road trip rig for family trips/hauling stuff.

[BeauV]

Andy,

We went through exactly this process before buying the 2018 Ford Expedition. We eliminated the Toyotas because they were all V8s (in our towing weight range). We eliminated the Chevy Suburban/Tahoe because we'd had 5 of them over the years and every one of them was worse than the previous version.

We ended up with the Ford Expedition by default/elimination. That said, we've been VERY happy with it. Indeed, it has become the favorite long trip vehicle. Key items:
- Independent rear end which gets rid of that irritating hopping on cement highways.
- Turbo V6 and 10-speed automatic plus their "eco" mode means 22-23 MPG on the freeway at 75 MPH, 18 MPG around town, measured result (not advertised).
- Both second and third-row seats can be put down from the back with electric buttons. Massively popular with The Admiral.

Comes with Apple CarPlay, now mandatory with our kids. Seats 7. Sadly, front bench seats seem to have disappeared despite how much I love 'em.

[Slick470]

Beau, we're primarily looking a size down from that. We only have occasional towing needs and the 5000lb class towing is standard in most of the ones we're looking at. Plus while I will be the primary driver, Sarah doesn't really like driving the Explorer due to its size. I should also note that this will be my daily driver.

I wouldn't be opposed to looking at another Explorer, but they are pricey when decently trimmed and right or wrong, Sarah is saying "not another Ford". Another down vote for the Explorer is the current design does not have a flat deck once you open the cargo area. It starts with a storage well. While this adds storage space and is probably seen as a feature, it is a turn off with how we pack the vehicle for longer road trips.

I should note that a typical road trip for us is pretty long haul and has usually involved an overnight sprint from DC to KC and then bounce around between KS and IA for a week or so before heading back East over a week or so camping and sightseeing with the kids and maybe dog in tow. Except for the gas mileage and now reliability, the Explorer has been near perfect for this.

[Jamie]

Ok, it's time for a new car. I've been driving a 2007 Ford Exploder for the past 5 years or so and while it has needed the occasional bit of help at the shop, it's been ok. It has a huge amount of space including a 3rd row, it is comfortable, and it drives nice. It is a bit under powered and gets abysmal gas mileage. It isn't what I would have bought if I were looking from scratch but I got a great deal on a private sale. So lately, my local shop and I have been chasing an intermittent misfire and given its age and mileage, Sarah has deemed it untrustworthy and in need of retirement.

I've narrowed the misfire most-likely list down to a internally faulty injector or a bad upper intake gasket, which is probably a couple hours of labor and $60 in parts. Getting to both is about the same amount of effort, but I've been told not to bother and start looking at the replacement.

My requirements are pretty basic; 2019 or 2020 model year, SUV (no mini vans), 4WD or AWD, has a 3rd row option, decent gas mileage, reliable, and has enough power to get out of it's own way (most likely a V6). Most of the other stuff like safety features, and infotainment stuff seems to come along with most of the vehicles in this class that meet the above.

So, my short list is currently down to a Toyota 4Runner (my favorite, but not as practical and the lowest gas mileage of the bunch), Toyota Highlander, Subaru Ascent (doesn't meet the V6 rule, but it has a turbo and runs on regular gas), and Kia Telluride (surprised Sarah likes this one actually) . We already own a Toyota car which my wife loves a bit too much, but we don't have much experience with these specific Toyota models or any personal experience with Subaru or Kia.

I've looked and an mostly ruled out for various reasons: Another Explorer, Chevy Traverse, Kia Sorrento, Honda Pilot, VW Atlas, or any of the "premium" brands like Acura, Audi, Mercedes and the like. I haven't put much thought into the Nissan Pathfinder, or whatever the Hyundai option is.

I know a few of you have more current experience with Toyota's and Subaru's. Any thoughts, experiences, maintenance woes, things to look for, other cars I'm missing here? Appreciate any insights from the assembled group.

Oh, I've also considered trading in my old extended cab pickup and the explorer for a 4-door mid-sized pickup like a Tacoma, Ranger, or Colorado, but I lose the 3rd row option and I have a harder time taking the family AND the dog anywhere. So right now the plan is to replace the explorer and keep the pickup for pickup stuff.

Longshot option, replace explorer, truck, and Sarah's car with EV cars for daily drivers, and get a Mercedes 4x4 sprinter conversion road trip rig for family trips/hauling stuff.

I looked at the 4Runner. Wife rejected it because it was hard to get into and drove like a pig. Then I was all set to buy a Subaru Ascent, but we don't need a 3rd row. The Mazda CX-9 was liked, but also rejected because it was too big. CX-5 turbo was probably a good choice. What did we end up with..... A Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk. But so far it's been a good car. Comfy, quiet, adequate power, good cargo space. I've even used the air suspension in some localized flooding.

savagegeese on youtube has some very well produced and technically strong reviews on some of these cars.

[Slick470]

Jamie, My guess is the 4 Runner won't live past first view/test drive with Sarah. She doesn't the looks of the CX9 so that's probably out too.

We don't "need" the 3rd row either, but it comes in handy when family is in town to limit the number of vehicles being driven around and now that our daughter is starting to do activities with other little girls in her school, the ability to haul around a small army of them is nice. Plus once you get into a vehicle with a 3rd row option, you end up with a decent amount of cargo volume when they are laid flat.

Thanks for the Youtube recommendation, I'll check them out. I've been using the Driving Sports TV channel as a starting point. They have reviewed several of the SUVs of this type.

[Jamie]

Jamie, My guess is the 4 Runner won't live past first view/test drive with Sarah. She doesn't the looks of the CX9 so that's probably out too.

We don't "need" the 3rd row either, but it comes in handy when family is in town to limit the number of vehicles being driven around and now that our daughter is starting to do activities with other little girls in her school, the ability to haul around a small army of them is nice. Plus once you get into a vehicle with a 3rd row option, you end up with a decent amount of cargo volume when they are laid flat.

Thanks for the Youtube recommendation, I'll check them out. I've been using the Driving Sports TV channel as a starting point. They have reviewed several of the SUVs of this type.

Alex on Autos is another better channel.

A surprise for me was how much the 3rd row compromised storage. When the 3rd row is up, it doesn't leave much room. When they are down, you get these spaces between the cargo floor and the second row seats things and it makes the load floor much higher.

[Slick470]

my 3rd row experience is limited to the Explorer I have now and I wasn't looking for a 3rd row when we bought it. I don't get the impression that I would have much more or storage if it didn't have the 3rd row... but I have never compared it to one without it. Hmm.. Other than the 4Runner, all of the options we are looking at have it standard. I'd probably rather have a 4-door Jeep or a Cherokee if the kid hauling wasn't a factor, but since it is, we'll probably keep looking at 3rd row options.

[Jamie]

Fair point. I forget the kids thing, being an empty-nester now. I imagine I have some time before grand-kids.

[LarryHoward]

I looked at pretty much every mid sized SUV last December before buying the Macan.

Two that stood out were the Pilot and the Ascent. Almost bought the Pilot but it had an annoying wind noise that started at around 35 mph. With research, it appears to be the body drain channel at the roof joint, so not easily fixed. The salesman hinted that it was not unique to that particular car. Typical Honda Grey Flannel Suit unremarkable but eminently practical and cost effective.

The Ascent was great to drive and the turbo 2.5L 4 cyl had plenty of power. It was difficult to option as I wanted it delivered and I was not fond of the dark brown leather. As they were very newly released at the time, prices were not very negotiable and the selection was pretty narrow.

The Highlander, Lexus RX, Infiniti and MDX all were pretty high priced for what you got. All nice vehicles but didn't excite me a bit.

Then I drove the Macan and practically dropped down the list........

[Chris Chesley]

I'm on my 2nd Toyota Highlander Hybrid. (only because we gave the first one to the kids when they had an auto deficiency...) Towing is #3500 but that's more than I need. I find I'm actually enjoying all the bells and whistles that came in the top end version. However, I rode in a Honda Pilot with 6 adults, using the third row seats and they were more convenient than the Highlander. Mileage was not so good to what I'm accustomed 28 Hwy and City all the time on the Highlander vs 'around' 20 on the Pilot. I can't 'do' sub 25 mpg in a vehicle, just on principle.

I have a little Kia Niro Hybrid for my 2nd car, it's a Prius killer at 50+ mpg but I'm less enthusiastic about how it seems to be holding up vs my Toyotas. Kia does a pretty nice job for a good price out the show room door. It's year 3 where the differences are starting to show. I do enjoy driving it though, far more than the Prius which came before it.

[TheOffice]

If you are willing to forgo the 3rd row, look at the 2015-2017 VW diesels. They have been upgraded and have 4 year warranties, and are cheap. (client is a VW dealer)

The 4 runner is a Tacoma with a cabin. We have an Infiniti QX50 and love it! I rather drive it than a BMW. If you can find a used QX60 you'll get the third row and a great V-6.

My 2 cents.

Joel

[Slick470]

Larry, Thanks for the info on the Pilot and Ascent. I am definitely interested in the Ascent but I'll probably end up in a 2020 as the 2019 models are scarce. I find the Pilot to be too bland. I think the CRV is a good looking vehicle, but the Pilot is just meh.

Chris, one of the goals with this search is to improve mpg. With the Explorer pretty much anything is an improvement, and combined above 20 would be nice. 4Runner doesn't quite get there, but not too far off. Not sure I want a hybrid for a road trip car, but like the idea for a daily driver.

Also trying to stay sub-$40k if I can get away with it.

[Slick470]

If you are willing to forgo the 3rd row, look at the 2015-2017 VW diesels. They have been upgraded and have 4 year warranties, and are cheap. (client is a VW dealer)

The 4 runner is a Tacoma with a cabin. We have an Infiniti QX50 and love it! I rather drive it than a BMW. If you can find a used QX60 you'll get the third row and a great V-6.

My 2 cents.

Joel

I'm not opposed to the VW in theory, but don't really want to own one out of warranty, but maybe worth looking at. I have the same feeling with a lot of the premium imports. Maybe I'm wrong and should consider them more?

I actually like that the 4Runner is basically a Tacoma and for capabilites, I really like the older body on frame SUVs, but I think I will lose out on that once we test drive one. Toyota also doesn't seem to offer much for incentives on them and probably figure if you want one, you're willing to pay for one.

[Olaf Hart]

We are long term CRV owners, current one is a 2013 model.

Our long term fuel use is 7.8 l/100 km, that is 30 mpg in US gallons.

The latest model has a third seat option down here.

[Slick470]

We are long term CRV owners, current one is a 2013 model.

Our long term fuel use is 7.8 l/100 km, that is 30 mpg in US gallons.

The latest model has a third seat option down here.

I do like the CRV's but I could not imagine how little space would be available for a 3rd row. Neighbor across the street from us has one and loves it.

[Chris Chesley]

Larry, Thanks for the info on the Pilot and Ascent. I am definitely interested in the Ascent but I'll probably end up in a 2020 as the 2019 models are scarce. I find the Pilot to be too bland. I think the CRV is a good looking vehicle, but the Pilot is just meh.

Chris, one of the goals with this search is to improve mpg. With the Explorer pretty much anything is an improvement, and combined above 20 would be nice. 4Runner doesn't quite get there, but not too far off. Not sure I want a hybrid for a road trip car, but like the idea for a daily driver.

Also trying to stay sub-$40k if I can get away with it.

You won't stay sub $40k with a hybrid Highlander. Not sure why a hybrid would be 'less attractive' for a road-trip car though. That's a head scratcher. Especially in something like a Highlander. Having gone cross country twice in mine, I only can see upsides. There is NO performance/acceleration degradation whatsoever and probably an improvement on the acceleration side as the electric motors 'assist'. The engine is still the same 3.5l 6 cyl.

[Slick470]

Chris, I may not be as up to speed on how the hybrid works as I should be. I thought that the hybrid was most efficient in city stop and go traffic vs highway driving? I've never owned one and really haven't considered one as a realistic option. Probably due to price.

Is it worth buying a used hybrid? How long to the batteries last?

[Slick470]

savagegeese on youtube has some very well produced and technically strong reviews on some of these cars.

This guy doesn't have too many reviews on this market, but I watched the Kia Sorento video and his back and forth with his mechanic buddy is pretty entertaining. Will check out Alex next...

[BeauV]

Andy, got it on the one-size down. We started there because I rented an Explorer for a trip from Santa Cruz to Jackson Hole and back. Loved it and decided to by that for the hauler to replace the Diesel Porsche Cayanne. We loved the Cayanne but neither my wife nor I will buy a VW product for a long time, maybe never. Not because of the car, but because the company was so deeply corrupt at the top.

We ended up with the Expedition because I've bought a gear trailer for MAYAN which, when fully loaded, is up around 6,000 lbs. Having done that, I have decided that there is a version of the line: "All jobs expand to 120% of the available time and resources." It goes: "All people and their junk expand to 120% of the size of whatever vehicle you own."

[Audrey]

I'll let others comment on the SUVs as I don't particularly like any of them.
1. Fix what you have, it's cheap, and you'll get full blue book value for it if you trade it in. A dealer will not give that to you. If you decide to keep it, it's by far the cheapest option.
2. Buy a car 2 years old. Still under warranty, but you save a lot of money.
3. I like my Chevy Colorado, it's a great little truck. It's paid for and cheap to insure. That's extra money every month.

One other suggestion, take a look at the engine and ask yourself, can you do the oil changes, battery swap, spark plugs and wires, etc. When you're forced to take it to a dealer, cost of ownership goes way up. For instance, the g/f has a Jeep Grand Cherokee '14 vintage and it needed some work. Basic fluid changes and spark plugs were $1800. You have to remove 1/2 the intake manifold to access the left bank.

[Jamie]

savagegeese on youtube has some very well produced and technically strong reviews on some of these cars.

This guy doesn't have too many reviews on this market, but I watched the Kia Sorento video and his back and forth with his mechanic buddy is pretty entertaining. Will check out Alex next...

He doesn't do a lot of reviews in general, but he's done a fair sampling: 4Runner, F150, Tacoma/Tundra , Highlander, Volvo wagons and SUV, Audi Q5, Acura MDX, Infinity and Lexus SUVs. You might look at this review of the Telluride - which is a 3 -row.

[Slick470]

Andy, got it on the one-size down. We started there because I rented an Explorer for a trip from Santa Cruz to Jackson Hole and back. Loved it and decided to by that for the hauler to replace the Diesel Porsche Cayanne. We loved the Cayanne but neither my wife nor I will buy a VW product for a long time, maybe never. Not because of the car, but because the company was so deeply corrupt at the top.

We ended up with the Expedition because I've bought a gear trailer for MAYAN which, when fully loaded, is up around 6,000 lbs. Having done that, I have decided that there is a version of the line: "All jobs expand to 120% of the available time and resources." It goes: "All people and their junk expand to 120% of the size of whatever vehicle you own."

Beau, I really thought that I'd end up in another Explorer after this one and I like the looks and features of the new ones. However, I didn't realize how much my wife is anti-ford after the current one. Don't think I am going to win that one. Not sure that even a battle I'm willing to fight.

[Slick470]

savagegeese on youtube has some very well produced and technically strong reviews on some of these cars.

This guy doesn't have too many reviews on this market, but I watched the Kia Sorento video and his back and forth with his mechanic buddy is pretty entertaining. Will check out Alex next...

He doesn't do a lot of reviews in general, but he's done a fair sampling: 4Runner, F150, Tacoma/Tundra , Highlander, Volvo wagons and SUV, Audi Q5, Acura MDX, Infinity and Lexus SUVs. You might look at this review of the Telluride - which is a 3 -row.

I watched his Highlander video and started the Telluride video before I had to pack it in and deal with my 7yo who just had a bad dream. He makes some valid points on each and seems to be in consensus with many of the reviews I have read.

[Slick470]

I'll let others comment on the SUVs as I don't particularly like any of them.
1. Fix what you have, it's cheap, and you'll get full blue book value for it if you trade it in. A dealer will not give that to you. If you decide to keep it, it's by far the cheapest option.
2. Buy a car 2 years old. Still under warranty, but you save a lot of money.
3. I like my Chevy Colorado, it's a great little truck. It's paid for and cheap to insure. That's extra money every month.

One other suggestion, take a look at the engine and ask yourself, can you do the oil changes, battery swap, spark plugs and wires, etc. When you're forced to take it to a dealer, cost of ownership goes way up. For instance, the g/f has a Jeep Grand Cherokee '14 vintage and it needed some work. Basic fluid changes and spark plugs were $1800. You have to remove 1/2 the intake manifold to access the left bank.

Unfortunately the Explorer is at a throw parts at it in hope that one of them fixes the problem. This morning, It did it's start up misfire, then the check engine light went out. Then I had tire pressure sensor warning pop up and it gurgled like it's a bit low on coolant.

I agree that if I can fix it I'll get more money for it on trade in, but I'm probably only looking at $3000 or so at best. It doesn't take a lot of parts to add up to a significant % of it's value. I also agree that fixing it and driving it is the most economical answer, but for what it's worth, Sarah has just lost faith in its reliability and is just waiting on what will break next.

I've been looking at used and CPO versions of the SUV's on my list and some offer decent savings over new, some don't. For instance a similarly spec'd Highlander that is 2 year old with 36k on it is $2k less than a new one. That's a no brainer, just buy new. But a 2019 Ascent with under 10k is a few grand cheaper than a new 2020 one. That is probably worth looking at.

[Chris Chesley]

Chris, I may not be as up to speed on how the hybrid works as I should be. I thought that the hybrid was most efficient in city stop and go traffic vs highway driving? I've never owned one and really haven't considered one as a realistic option. Probably due to price.

Is it worth buying a used hybrid? How long to the batteries last?

When I was in a volunteer fire dept, I took a course on hybrids (we have to deal with them in traffic accident situations). Bottom line? They last longer, run more efficiently, wear out less because they are more often running in their 'sweet spot' (engine load, use wise) and I have yet to hear of anyone changing out a battery! (that was the big concern early on). I see absolutely NO downside to them apart from initial extra cost but compensated for emotionally if not actually, at the pump! The 2013 Highlander that I gave to the kids has over 100k on it now, has had zero repair expenses (at 6 yrs and counting) apart from tires (50k) and regular oil changes. The brakes/discs are still original and not even close to replacement due to the requirement of oversize to enable braking regeneration ability) There's a reason that used Highlanders cost nearly like new!

From a practical standpoint, I do not trust/expect all the technology, bells and whistles to last indefinitely and they are not cheap to replace so I would expect to buy new every 5-7 years just on principle. Fortunately, (to date) I've been able to do that. I've been experimenting with leasing for the Prius and Kia, (I bought the Highlanders outright--well a small loan on the current one). I have viewed the leasing to be just paying for the 'part of the car I use and, of course, the depreciation).

The concept of being able to 'fix it yourself' is pretty much a quaint, impossibility with any recent vintage car unless you're a dedicated mechanic with tools, know-how, etc. Too many circuit boards and chips. I buy new, keep it 'long enough' and enjoy the reliability of new (and of Toyota)

Best of luck on the 'hunt'!

[Jamie]

I agree. I think I've bought my last cars. The rest will be leases. The cost of fixing an adaptive damper or an autopilot bumper with sensors is just shocking.

The only good thing is new cars can tell you where it hurts if you have the diagnostic tools.

[Audrey]

For instance a similarly spec'd Highlander that is 2 year old with 36k on it is $2k less than a new one. That's a no brainer, just buy new. But a 2019 Ascent with under 10k is a few grand cheaper than a new 2020 one. That is probably worth looking at.

Just make sure the advertised prices is the out the door price. It rarely is. They typically include a tremendous amount of discounts to get you in the door then say 'oh, that was a military, teacher, senior, discount you don't qualify for". Then tack on delivery charges, admin fees, processing, give you crap on your trade in, and then push you towards the finance department where the real fun begins. Can you tell I don't like dealers?

[Slick470]

yes, I've noticed that you have to read the fine print. Sometimes its some low APR OR $3000 cash back. Sarah is good at drilling down on the financials.

[TheOffice]

The dealer processing fees are usually 800 in VA. In Maryland they are capped at 299.

Joel

[BeauV]

Regarding battery lifetimes, before buying the Tesla I did a lot of research. It appears that the manufacturers of cars were VERY VERY VERY conservative on the lifetime of these batteries. If you don't abuse them, meaning drive them totally flat, which is really hard in a hybrid, they last between 3 and 5 times the original estimates. There are Toyota Prius which are at 8 times the original estimate and the fleet average has turned out to be well over 3 times original estimate.

Tesla has consistently found that baring abuse one can get between 300,000 and 400,000 miles out of a Tesla Model S battery stack. There are many that have gone more than 600,000 miles. The rest of the car is crap by the time the batteries start to wear out.

I would not worry about the battery life at all provided it's a credible company building the hybrid.