When the Impossible suddenly becomes Possible

[Ajax]

With the United States becoming a literal dumpster fire, I've been examining my options.

Obviously I want to sail somewhere, but I also firmly believe that as the U.S. circles the drain, more and more nations will refuse escaping U.S. expats, bringing their emotional and national baggage with them.

I am eligible for Italian citizenship. My 2nd cousin has already successfully completed the process and has all the critical paperwork about our family. The million dollar question: Can I apply for and actually hold dual citizenship while retaining my extremely high security clearance and my job? I thought for sure that the answer was a solid "NO." Turns out that this isn't the case. It is allowed, depending on the country and the nature of any foreign influence. Citizenship will guarantee me a place to land, all I have to do is get there.

The application process is complex and will likely take 2 years even with having my paperwork all in order. I didn't want to be unemployed or under-employed for such a lengthy period while I fight my way through the application process. Keeping my job during the process is the best possible outcome.

Although we love Florence where my cousin lives, we have no desire to live in the city. It's unaffordable anyway. I've found a remote village down in the toe of the boot that is 30 minutes from each coast, with a marina on each coast. The properties are affordable and the village is encouraging people to move there. I'm going to pay my cousin to scout the village for me, speak to the mayor and photograph several potential properties. If we like what we see, I will fly over for a personal inspection, and close the purchase. My intention is to buy and refurbish one of these properties as a safe landing pad/vacation home/retirement home.

I'm going to put new standing rigging on the Tartan and prepare it for an Atlantic crossing. VAT to import the boat is affordable according to my research so far.

Before you all start with the lectures about what I am escaping to, I am aware that Italy isn't some sort of utopia. They have government corruption, a fetish-level love of bureaucracy, and organized crime. I have no intention of importing my American values or insisting that Italy accommodate me "because 'Murica." I intend to integrate and live in the country, quietly, and hopefully go sailing.

[Jamie]

Just tell us when we can crash your place.

[Benno von Humpback]

Have you been following Italian politics, not to mention history? Lovely country, great people, but not where I would go to seek stability.

[Olaf Hart]

I have Irish citizenship via the same route, it’s something I am proud of and helps connect me with my families history.

One of my brothers moved back to Ireland, close to our ancestral village, so all 10 brothers and sisters have experienced a deep link to the past we never expected.

My wife has also experienced the same thing in Scotland.

We have friends who spend every summer in Italy running their hotel in a little castle, and we have wonderful memories of the country.

And best of all, I think Italians have the right attitude to Government and authority, they treat it as a joke and just get on with their lives.

My only advice is keep your spare money in a country with a more secure economy....

By the way guys, we have spare real estate down here and plan to hang onto it till after November..

[Ajax]

Have you been following Italian politics, not to mention history? Lovely country, great people, but not where I would go to seek stability.

Do you call what we have right now, stability? I don't.
Yeah, I'm keenly aware. I did say that I know it's not a utopia and it has its problems. Hey, I'll be able to ride a bicycle in my village with more safety than you do where you live now.

Are you aware that Canada is one of the most difficult countries in the world to emigrate to? It's not like I can just choose to go anywhere in the world and be accepted. My cousin has lived happily in Florence nearly her entire life and despite all the national drama, has never been in danger. I'm scouting properties in a remote, de-populated corner of Italy where things will likely be quieter and more disconnected. If I have my way, I'll be out sailing much of the time, anyway.

Olaf is right about Italians' attitude towards government. They are at least honest about their chaos. The US is lying to itself. I've listened to both sides of the political discussions here and elsewhere and I definitely do not fall neatly into either category. I think both sides have major flaws in their arguments and I refuse to be labeled or ally myself with either Progressive or Conservative viewpoints. I no longer want anything to do with this mess.

[TheOffice]

We had a discussion about dual citizenship within the last week, so you are not alone!

Much of southern Italy is under-populated and welcomes fresh blood. Just make sure there is room at the guest dock for Atlantis!

As for an Atlantic crossing, I'd want a robust auto-pilot and more tankage than the Tartan gives you. Not that you can't do it, but not my ideal vessel for the trip.

[Ajax]

We had a discussion about dual citizenship within the last week, so you are not alone!

Much of southern Italy is under-populated and welcomes fresh blood. Just make sure there is room at the guest dock for Atlantis!

As for an Atlantic crossing, I'd want a robust auto-pilot and more tankage than the Tartan gives you. Not that you can't do it, but not my ideal vessel for the trip.

It's not ideal by today's inflated standards. 60 gallons of fresh water plus 26 more in jugs for one or two people for a 30 day crossing? Jeeze, that old British couple in the Plathe films stretched 80 gallons for 80 days. Yeah, need to do something about the auto pilot. I've gotten an estimate for a Hydrovane but it's pretty pricey.

[Benno von Humpback]

Things are bad here, but they've been bad before. Hell, people here used to own slaves! As for political turmoil, the 1860s were worse and the 1930s were probably just as bad. I am more hopeful in several ways than I was a month or two ago.

As for the two factions, anyone who equates them, even casually, at this point is wrong in my opinion. One is set on instituting authoritarian rule and fostering nationalist hatreds. The other one is just a poorly organized political party with some soft-left policies and a bunch of feckless do-gooders.

[BeauV]

Ajax, I've done business in Italy many times and for extended periods. It makes the US look extremely honest and rational. Also, after working with a number of companies in Italy, I would never ever ever ever live south of Rome. Period. I have traveled extensively in Italy, and some of my dearest friends live there still, but all the things you've been upset with in the US are massively worse in Italy (especially S. Italy).

I think you are deeply mistaken about Italians vs Americans lying to themselves. Please at least take a year, fly over to Italy, and live there. Then make up your mind. After having lived in New Zealand, Germany, Holland, and the US. I can tell you flat out that the only other place on earth I'd live is NZ. Please don't make a massive commitment, like sailing a small boat across the Atlantic, without doing a simple test of trying the country out long enough to know what's really going on.

I don't normally give folks I only know slightly this sort of advice, but I've seen too many friends spend a fortune relocating into a place they really didn't know and ending up wihtout enough money to get home. Perhaps you've already lived there for an extended period of time. In that case, my warning is unnecessary. It is made with only your best interests at heart.

[Ajax]

I appreciate your kindness Beau but you really don't know what I'm upset about and I'm not going to explain it because just like Disco, Discourse is dead.

If the place I'm looking at is corrupt and/or dangerous, I will find out before I finalize the purchase of any property. My cousin doesn't exactly live an insular existence in Florence, she travels extensively and is well versed in Italian politics and social issues. My great-aunt is, as well. They, combined with my own research will help me decide where to land.

[BeauV]

I appreciate your kindness Beau but you really don't know what I'm upset about and I'm not going to explain it because just like Disco, Discourse is dead.

If the place I'm looking at is corrupt and/or dangerous, I will find out before I finalize the purchase of any property. My cousin doesn't exactly live an insular existence in Florence, she travels extensively and is well versed in Italian politics and social issues. My great-aunt is, as well. They, combined with my own research will help me decide where to land.

Fair enough.

[Jamie]

Driving in Italy feels like I'm back in Taiwan. Dad is running the country. Not mom.

[Olaf Hart]

Driving in Italy feels like I'm back in Taiwan. Dad is running the country. Not mom.

I thought Taiwan had a female president....

[BeauV]

Driving in Italy feels like I'm back in Taiwan. Dad is running the country. Not mom.

My favorite memory of Italy was when my good friend Vincenzo bought a Ferrari 400 because for that car the speed limit was higher than for his old car. I'd never seen a country with stickers on the back of the car announcing the max speed allowed by the type of car. Apparently, German supercars are forced to go more slowly than Italian supercars. I guess it's only fair, the Italians paid for the roads.

[Olaf Hart]

It’s those 90 degree on and off ramps on the Autostrada that freak me, you get about 100 yards from close to a standing start to merge at full speed...

[Anomaly]

Interesting! Have you scoped out the marina berth fees? That's the part that has me stumped and on the verge of giving up the idea of sailing our boat across... Seriously thinking of just changing gears to a different, smaller style of boating.

[Jamie]

Driving in Italy feels like I'm back in Taiwan. Dad is running the country. Not mom.

I thought Taiwan had a female president....

Things have changed in Taiwan. It's gotten much more regulated and organized. Still, speeding and traffic violations are a pay-as-you-go system for most violations. No points. No increase in insurance. You can pay your fines at the 7-11.

[Ajax]

Interesting! Have you scoped out the marina berth fees? That's the part that has me stumped and on the verge of giving up the idea of sailing our boat across... Seriously thinking of just changing gears to a different, smaller style of boating.

Not yet. I haven't gotten that far. I've spotted 2 marinas to inquire about.

[Jamie]

We had a discussion about dual citizenship within the last week, so you are not alone!

Much of southern Italy is under-populated and welcomes fresh blood. Just make sure there is room at the guest dock for Atlantis!

As for an Atlantic crossing, I'd want a robust auto-pilot and more tankage than the Tartan gives you. Not that you can't do it, but not my ideal vessel for the trip.

It's not ideal by today's inflated standards. 60 gallons of fresh water plus 26 more in jugs for one or two people for a 30 day crossing? Jeeze, that old British couple in the Plathe films stretched 80 gallons for 80 days. Yeah, need to do something about the auto pilot. I've gotten an estimate for a Hydrovane but it's pretty pricey.

Windvane with a tiller-pilot as back-up and and good under deck like the Pelagic. A couple of jerry cans and you're good for water and fuel (no need to bring enough to re-invade Iraq). I'd spend most of my time inspecting/replacing my rigging, sails, rudder and skin fittings. But you know that already.

[Steele]

I have also traveled in Southern Italy and at times it was magical. The best food we have ever had was there. The weather was great, the people are wonderfull, and the history is something we do not have in the US. Other times it felt pretty third world. To thrive there as a expat I feel you would have to be very laid back and easy going. The politics, petty crime, and bureaucracy can be difficult. Dealing with banks, post offices, trains, passport issues etc can take hours, sometimes days. I am too uptight to make it work, but Rich may be a different animal. I agree with Beau, try it for a month first.

[Jamie]

A French customs agent told me I was “mentally resisting” him. So I pointed to my head and asked him how he knew and if he knew what I was thinking now? That got a laugh from the crowd but didn’t help my cause.

US bureaucracy is the worst bureaucracy when you run into it. We’re not even good at it.

[Tigger]

Serious consideration: I imagine your security credentials allow you to work in an official capacity with any of the '5 Eyes'--the US, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, and New Zealand.

Any chance you can apply for a secondment or a posting? You could sail to Halifax ... Ottawa is technically possible, but ... it is the second coldest national capital in the world.

[Anomaly]

By the way guys, we have spare real estate down here and plan to hang onto it till after November..

NOW you tell me...

(I loved it there but Tassie was too far from the French chick's family for her...)

[Anomaly]

Interesting! Have you scoped out the marina berth fees? That's the part that has me stumped and on the verge of giving up the idea of sailing our boat across... Seriously thinking of just changing gears to a different, smaller style of boating.

Not yet. I haven't gotten that far. I've spotted 2 marinas to inquire about.

It seemed to me that buying a slip (posta barca) was the way to go, but you still had annual fees to contend with. A local sailing friend said forget that and look for a "circolo"--- a cooperative that has a long term lease on some slips and then rents/leases to members on shorter terms at much reduced rates. You may find the situation more reasonable in Puglia (?). I abandoned my search as I'm now saving my pennies to buy a vineyard/olive grove.

[Ajax]

Anom- Thanks for the tip on the coop.

Steele, I have much but I need very little. I don't think I'll be fetching water from the village well every day or crapping in a shed behind the house. If I have running water, septic, walls and a roof, I'll be happy.
My current house is pretty small by today's US standards.

[Jamie]

From the age of 18 to 45 I lived as an expat, with some breaks for school. My kids were born overseas. I got married overseas. I lived in 3 real and 2 fake countries over than time. It’s given me a good appreciation for the US and also makes me very aware of its failings. I developed a very idealistic view!

Moving back to the US has been a bit like moving to foreign country. Moving got Floriduh from a Portland has been like moving to a foreign country. Culture shock is real, and it is the permanence -when you realize this is now your life and there is no changing it- that gets you. You won’t know until you’re about 6-months to a year in how you really feel. Is it giving you energy or draining you? China was a drain for me even though I did it 3 times. Well, that’s my experience.

Language, food are all fun and eas-ish. It’s the little stuff like learning how to line up properly in a queue.

Still, it’s something I totally encourage.

[kimbottles]

My current house is pretty small by today's US standards.

One of my best friends and his wife are selling their 4800 sq ft house. They view our 2600 sq ft as a more appropriate sized house for a couple.

We went from 3600 sq ft to this house 23 years ago. If I were to build a new house I think 2000 Sq Ft would be the target.

But I would increase my garage up from its current 1080 sq ft. Big garage, small house sounds right to me.

[Panope]

.......................Big garage, small house sounds right to me.

My politics might be all fucked up, but I sure as hell got this one right!

Steve

[kdh]

.......................Big garage, small house sounds right to me.

My politics might be all fucked up, but I sure as hell got this one right!

Steve

Same here. Barn, garage, small house.

[Benno von Humpback]

By the way guys, we have spare real estate down here and plan to hang onto it till after November..

NOW you tell me...

(I loved it there but Tassie was too far from the French chick's family for her...)

Daughter just applied for a fisheries science job down there.