Conoravirus ...

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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby slap » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:56 pm

Chris Chesley wrote:
slap wrote:
Chris Chesley wrote:Someday. Someday, I will get my hands on a nice set of Ships Curves....

Kim, you have an amazing collection of really 'Good Things'.


When the drafting room at work (David Taylor Model Basin) closed down the retiring draftsmen were throwing out all sorts of unneeded stuff - who needs hand drawing tools when everything is now being done on computer? Since my office was in that area I was able to pick up "out of the trash" all sorts of neat stuff - a set of ships curves in a nice wood box, big slide rules, spline weights, etc.



So you're willing to part with them for a similar cost plus shipping...?


Still using them - just used them a couple of weeks ago.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Chris Chesley » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:31 pm

slap wrote:
Chris Chesley wrote:
slap wrote:
Chris Chesley wrote:Someday. Someday, I will get my hands on a nice set of Ships Curves....

Kim, you have an amazing collection of really 'Good Things'.


When the drafting room at work (David Taylor Model Basin) closed down the retiring draftsmen were throwing out all sorts of unneeded stuff - who needs hand drawing tools when everything is now being done on computer? Since my office was in that area I was able to pick up "out of the trash" all sorts of neat stuff - a set of ships curves in a nice wood box, big slide rules, spline weights, etc.



So you're willing to part with them for a similar cost plus shipping...?


Still using them - just used them a couple of weeks ago.


Good on ya! The search continues...
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby SemiSalt » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:36 pm

2020-04-12_1725.png


My analytical self is a little frustrated by some of the graphs and projections. Everything is updated in ways that make it hard to judge how good the projections are. I noticed that at the bottom of the page on the IHME site there is a link to download the data. So I did. The graph is for Connecticut. The blue line is the actual death data. The orange line is a projection made on 4/1/2020. The grey line is a projection made on 4/8/2020. So in one week, their best guess for CT moves the peak forward a week and the peak value is 3+ times higher. I'm thinking the first projection wasn't very good.

It looks like the models are recalibrated at least once a week. There was a 4/4/2020 model projection that I skipped. I'm going to be interested to track this.

I really wish I could get data for Fairfield County. On the one hand, it has most of the cases in Connecticut, and on the other hand, I would expect it to be more like New York. Maybe what's going on the graph is that the rest of the state is just seeing the wave later.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby BeauV » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:56 am

Semi,

Here in CA we have a massive difference in the shape and size of the curve (as a % of the population) for different counties and parts of counties. Here in Santa Cruz we've been very VERY fortunate and have actual results that are about 1/3 of the projections from late March. I believe there are many factors that contribute to that:

1) We have never moved people around much by rapid transit. We're a bike and individual car culture around here. Growth of the infected population is corresponding heavily with the use of public transportation like Busses, Trains, Subways and Ferries. Obviously, all places where people stand close together and touch things that have been touched.

2) The community is pretty health-conscious and many of us locked down one or two weeks before being asked to by any government group. In our case, we locked down on March 6th, when our local elementary school closed for the year. San Francisco ordered a SIP March 17th, California ordered a SIP March 20th. Starting early, there were only 4 cases out of 275,000 people in our county, made an enormous difference.

3) The police are aggressively fining people. On Thursday 7 people in a van came over from Santa Clara county to go to the beach. They were spotted in a gas station by a local cop and arrested. Each was fined $1,000 which they had to pay before getting out of jail or await trial. The largest Santa Clara County newspaper rand a photo of all 7 people handcuffed sitting on the curb on the front page with a headline that said: "Santa Cruz is Closed, Local beachgoers arrested" The traffic into town vaporized. The parks, beaches, etc... are all closed and patrolled.

This has made predicting the infection rate much harder but with errors in the opposite direction from what you're seeing. If it weren't for folks like truck drivers bringing the virus into town, we'd have a rapidly declining rate of infection. We still have a small enough number of cases that each case is traced and the infection vector identified. We obviously need the food and other things which truck deliveries bring in, but new aggressive cleaning is being applied to the trucks and drivers.

Currently, our county of 275,000 has 88 confirmed cases, 1 death, and an infection rate of 32/100,000 people. Other counties across the country are much worse where there is intense shared rapid transit or where folks didn't lockdown early.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby kdh » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:02 am

SemiSalt wrote:
2020-04-12_1725.png


My analytical self is a little frustrated by some of the graphs and projections. Everything is updated in ways that make it hard to judge how good the projections are. I noticed that at the bottom of the page on the IHME site there is a link to download the data. So I did. The graph is for Connecticut. The blue line is the actual death data. The orange line is a projection made on 4/1/2020. The grey line is a projection made on 4/8/2020. So in one week, their best guess for CT moves the peak forward a week and the peak value is 3+ times higher. I'm thinking the first projection wasn't very good.

It looks like the models are recalibrated at least once a week. There was a 4/4/2020 model projection that I skipped. I'm going to be interested to track this.

I really wish I could get data for Fairfield County. On the one hand, it has most of the cases in Connecticut, and on the other hand, I would expect it to be more like New York. Maybe what's going on the graph is that the rest of the state is just seeing the wave later.

These are obviously bad models--there's a lot of data sensitivity.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby LarryHoward » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:29 am

kdh wrote:
SemiSalt wrote:
2020-04-12_1725.png


My analytical self is a little frustrated by some of the graphs and projections. Everything is updated in ways that make it hard to judge how good the projections are. I noticed that at the bottom of the page on the IHME site there is a link to download the data. So I did. The graph is for Connecticut. The blue line is the actual death data. The orange line is a projection made on 4/1/2020. The grey line is a projection made on 4/8/2020. So in one week, their best guess for CT moves the peak forward a week and the peak value is 3+ times higher. I'm thinking the first projection wasn't very good.

It looks like the models are recalibrated at least once a week. There was a 4/4/2020 model projection that I skipped. I'm going to be interested to track this.

I really wish I could get data for Fairfield County. On the one hand, it has most of the cases in Connecticut, and on the other hand, I would expect it to be more like New York. Maybe what's going on the graph is that the rest of the state is just seeing the wave later.

These are obviously bad models--there's a lot of data sensitivity.


While I agree that very early runs had extreme sensitivity to input data changes, they seem to be working hard to refine their models, reduce sensitivity and calibrate it regularly. To be fair, they are trying to model a still developing pandemic with wildly imperfect data, collected at random times and projecting on assumed compliance with shelter in place policies.

Is there a better model out there? I haven't come across one so far.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby SemiSalt » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:00 am

Bad data or not enough data.

I made the same plot for NY state. It's not so bad, but can see that adding 7 data points changes the results a lot, but those 7 points could be 1/4 of the useful data.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby kdh » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:03 am

LarryHoward wrote:
kdh wrote:
SemiSalt wrote:
2020-04-12_1725.png


My analytical self is a little frustrated by some of the graphs and projections. Everything is updated in ways that make it hard to judge how good the projections are. I noticed that at the bottom of the page on the IHME site there is a link to download the data. So I did. The graph is for Connecticut. The blue line is the actual death data. The orange line is a projection made on 4/1/2020. The grey line is a projection made on 4/8/2020. So in one week, their best guess for CT moves the peak forward a week and the peak value is 3+ times higher. I'm thinking the first projection wasn't very good.

It looks like the models are recalibrated at least once a week. There was a 4/4/2020 model projection that I skipped. I'm going to be interested to track this.

I really wish I could get data for Fairfield County. On the one hand, it has most of the cases in Connecticut, and on the other hand, I would expect it to be more like New York. Maybe what's going on the graph is that the rest of the state is just seeing the wave later.

These are obviously bad models--there's a lot of data sensitivity.


While I agree that very early runs had extreme sensitivity to input data changes, they seem to be working hard to refine their models, reduce sensitivity and calibrate it regularly. To be fair, they are trying to model a still developing pandemic with wildly imperfect data, collected at random times and projecting on assumed compliance with shelter in place policies.

Is there a better model out there? I haven't come across one so far.

Fair enough, but wildly imperfect data can be modeled. If they were we wouldn't see the sensitivity we see.

I appreciate the difficulties of modeling in this situation and these models have been helpful--much better than no models at all. We all need a sense that all this isolation will pay off for us and some idea of what to expect.

Another thing to think about. These models forecast a distribution--not just a best guess but all scenarios with probability attached to them, the way FiveThirtyEight do. This gives us confidence intervals and importantly some sense of model accuracy. In this context the models are not nearly as sensitive. We have a tendency to put all our eggs in the best guess basket, which is not appropriate in this situation. Nate Silver is often harping on this.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Panope » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:26 am

If I remember right, several weeks ago, the models predicted the peak would occur in the first part of April. That was accurate, if not the quantity of the peak.

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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby LarryHoward » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:55 am

Some interesting local data. Our county has approximately 113.5K people. Maryland initiated restrictions on 16 March, the same day testing was initially available with a doctor' s prescription. Drive through testing (first in eh State) available on 18 March with a doctor's prescription. Our first confirmed CV-19 case was on 21 March.

Today, the stats look like this.

Confirmed Cases 104 Case Breakdown by Age:
Negative Test Results 400 0-19 <10
Hospitalizations (total) 21* 20-29 22
Recovered & Released from Isolation 30 30-39 10
Male 53 40-49 18
Female 51 50-59 19
60-69 13
70+ 16

Testing is available with a script but any respiratory symptoms qualify for a test. No deaths to date. So basically less than .1% of the county infected. 79% negative test results. 29% of confirmed cases recovered. 20% required hospitalization to date. M/F distribution roughly in line with demographics. A significant portion of the county is made up of "essential" personnel working at the Naval Air Test Center. Many teleworking but the base is open and operating including flight testing.

Anecdotally, I'm hearing ICU is not overrun and a very few on vents.

Hoping we remain lightly impacted. Low population density and generally good compliance with shelter in place restrictions seem to be making a difference.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby BeauV » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:02 pm

I remain impressed with this straight talk from a doctor in Illinois. She really nails it. She comes on after the Gov. at about 40 sec. in. The key point is that if we're really good at sheltering in place, we'll look back and wonder why we did it. There won't be a giant spike of infections, there won't be any dramatic news, and that will mean we did our job.

Of course, those who believe they will benefit from dramatic bad news or by claiming that we didn't need to shelter in place will Monday Morning Quarterback the hell out of our success. We need to keep in mind that these folks are probably dead wrong, no matter how important they feel they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=56&v=Y32Oc-yPMPQ&feature=emb_logo
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby kimbottles » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:07 pm

Kitsap county:
Pop 271,470
Cases 132
Deaths 1

https://content.govdelivery.com/account ... ns/286248d

Bainbridge Island, stable for about a week here now, staying at 11 cases.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby LarryHoward » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:10 pm

LarryHoward wrote:Some interesting local data. Our county has approximately 113.5K people. Maryland initiated restrictions on 16 March, the same day testing was initially available with a doctor' s prescription. Drive through testing (first in eh State) available on 18 March with a doctor's prescription. Our first confirmed CV-19 case was on 21 March.

Today, the stats look like this.

Confirmed Cases 104 Case Breakdown by Age:
Negative Test Results 400 0-19 <10
Hospitalizations (total) 21* 20-29 22
Recovered & Released from Isolation 30 30-39 10
Male 53 40-49 18
Female 51 50-59 19
60-69 13
70+ 16

Testing is available with a script but any respiratory symptoms qualify for a test. No deaths to date. So basically less than .1% of the county infected. 79% negative test results. 29% of confirmed cases recovered. 20% required hospitalization to date. M/F distribution roughly in line with demographics. A significant portion of the county is made up of "essential" personnel working at the Naval Air Test Center. Many teleworking but the base is open and operating including flight testing.

Anecdotally, I'm hearing ICU is not overrun and a very few on vents.

Hoping we remain lightly impacted. Low population density and generally good compliance with shelter in place restrictions seem to be making a difference.


Edit So much for my effort to format the columns. Shows up very nicely in editing but loses it as soon as I submit/
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Jamie » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:34 pm

An update my boss wrote for friends and family. It's not official, just opinion.

April 11, 2020: 1,500,000 Cases Later

DISCLOSURE: Upon starting this update Saturday morning EST, the official case count reported globally was technically 3 people short of 1,500,000 positive cases from the first note March 21 of 287,329 positive cases (1,444,977). While this constitutes a forward looking statement, by the time this update is finished, the confirmed global count should be more than trued up. Furthermore, if you are seeking that decimal point level of precision, I would guide you to the epidemiologists for further analysis rather than this note which is intended for friends and family!

On a more somber note, there has been, and will continue to be, tragic suffering and mortality this weekend in the world for those that have succumbed to severe infections of COVID-19. We have passed 100,000 deaths officially so far (for perspective, flu related mortality, where we do have antivirals and vaccines for vulnerable people, would be from 12-60K). Depending on how we handle the next few weeks, we could end up being just 15-20 times worse than a flu season, or we could end up a lot worse. Sadly, some of those spending the weekend in the ICU trying to change the mortality statistics will become part of the statistics as a result of infection themselves. That said, there are some positive things we can reflect on this Easter weekend that may give some hope about how we will get through this, and some innovative approaches may help the world recover faster. Many people are rightfully worried about our economy,but it is not a bad weekend to put things in perspective (seeing your family 24 hours a day while remembering when to change from day pajamas to night pajamas). One thing that seems to be most troubling is that many people don’t see a path yet to HOW things gets better, or WHEN things gets better. While we are not declaring victory on this pandemic, this is perhaps a turning point as the Battle of the Bulge. No, we haven’t yet won the war, but we are starting to not lose.

Map Reading – The Big Picture
By way of analogy, at the 60,000 foot level, this pandemic looks like a global brushfire with strong easterly winds. It burned first through Asia and embers sparked strongly in Europe with the US flaring a few weeks later. The size of the red dots (total cases) in the Hopkins tracker is now maxed out so we can no longer tell whether a location has 10,000 cases or 100,000 cases. The brown dots below (active cases) give a better sense of where the fire is burning today compared to how much has burned so far. Recall that viruses need humans as fuel to replicate. So they are helpless without us.

Some people like to use the metric of ‘R0’ for spreading potential of a virus. At a population level, if the virus has an R0 of 2-3 it is like spreading wildfire in dry brush with a strong breeze. If R0 gets below 1, it is like a fire trying to spread across concrete with no wind to carry the embers. It just burns out when the fuel is spent. Staying at home gets the R0 below 1 and makes the virus burn out.

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https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

So if we want to figure out how long it takes for the fire to burn out with the fire breaks we have in place now, we can start looking at other countries where it has been burning earlier. While Spain as an example, has less cases overall than the US, it has twice the numbers on a per capita basis (3,462/1M people in Spain vs 1,576/1M people US) and it has been burning longer than the US. The curve below shows that the active cases (number of infected people) in Spain have started to level off. From March 13 through April 3rd, Spain was a burning wildfire with no signs of slowing down. The US on the other hand, really took off around March 22nd. Of course, active case records have measurement bias (different testing rules, testing kit availability etc) and some people like to debate the alternate hypothesis than in the fact things may really be improving. Mortality is a late measurement tool (and has bias), but is a bit more accurate.

So the encouraging thing is that Spain does appear to be flattening out now in number of active cases. And the number of new deaths per day are encouraging. So how long does it take for the fire to burn out? If we look at the decay rate in China, it was about 35 days after the peak of active cases when people started getting back to work slowly. We may not be able to count on this for the US, but it is a complete curve. If Spain starts on a downward slope of active cases by the end of next week however, they will likely have another 30 days, but it will give us more to work with. If everyone knew today that May 20th would be the exact day for the US we would all love to put it on our calendars and start planning. More likely places like New York will come out a little earlier and a few other states will come out a little later. And then we have to talk about how we treat people in the interim, and how we get people back online.

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Blood, Tests and Medicine

As noted before, vaccines are definitely in the pipeline, yes they ARE moving forward, and yes I think they will come, but I would not show up at Walgreens asking for your COVID flu shot before the end of 2021. Injecting perfectly healthy people with mixtures of stuff we make in the lab has a higher bar when it comes to first doing no harm. Once a vaccine is proven safe and effective, it will get out there and it will be inexpensive and everyone will be able to get it.

Today clinicians are basically working off one test for active viruses (PCR), a few drugs (chloroquine cocktails, IL6 antibodies) and potentially blood bank derived ‘hyperimmune’ plasma from people that have recovered from infection. The latter is something that is likely to help in a number of ways, including testing for those that have been exposed. Many of my friends in other fields seem to think convalescent plasma means going to old folks homes and taking their blood, so I think the term hyperimmune plasma is probably easier to understand (perhaps).

On the antiviral front, last Friday the New England Journal of Medicine reported out a case study of patients that were given the experimental antiviral remdesivir under compassionate use. For people that develop medicine for a living, the data are frustrating and difficult to articulate. If we were to rely on historical controls, we could be very enthusiastic about the data below. Many patients with both severe disease (intubated) and moderate disease (mild support) improved lung function on this medicine in this small case study. But the cases had no testing for reductions in viral load, and it is well “possible” that the patients treated recovered better for reasons other than the medicine. What we can say is that the medicine tested at the doses used, did not appear to have any severe side effects at the dose tested. The manufacturer of this medicine has some large trials in the US that will be reading out in a few weeks however, and have sufficient numbers in a severe patient population and a mild patient population that I think the drug can be rolled out quickly if the data are clear. The company has several hundred thousand vials already produced so this is an imminent opportunity to help patients if the data support it. This is something that could be deployed to hospitals in 4-6 weeks. So this NEJM publication supports the ongoing trials which will read out soon.

Image


On the hyperimmune plasma side, this is an interesting opportunity that also ties in with new testing methods for finding out who has been exposed to the virus already. There are a number of antibody therapies approved today derived from pooled plasma of healthy blood donors. I spent many (painful) years developing a polyclonal immunoglobulin product with a pharmaceutical company for people with primary immune deficiency. They are produced from healthy donor plasma that have antibodies to different viruses and pathogens people are normally immunized against (measles, hepatitis etc). You inject the antibodies into children and adults that cannot make their own antibodies, and voila, it protects them from infections. In the case of COVID-19, when someone has recovered from an infection, they will produce high levels of antibodies in their blood that help protect them against future infection. FDA has licensed the use of donated plasma from people immune to COVID19. There are no trials to prove it works for COVID19 yet, but it has worked in the past and its pretty quick to get to hospitals. This type of COVID19 blood drive could help people that cannot make antibodies fast enough on their own to fight off the infection. As we move from just being able to test for active infections by PCR to using a quick blood test for antibodies against COVID 19 this also serves a dual purpose. On the one hand we can help identify people that have recovered from COVID 19 infections that can donate blood to help treat patients with active infection at risk of getting very sick. On the other hand we can also identify people that are not likely to be infected again and could be back at work quickly if they were confirmed to be immune.

There has recently been more investigation into trying to understand how some people get a fever but never end up with severe respiratory distress, while others that can be very young and healthy still end up in the ICU. One theory is that the viral load you are infected with could have a big impact on whether your immune system wins or the virus wins. There are sadly some people working in hospitals that are young and healthy but succumb to the disease. The thought is that they may be getting infected with a high level of virus. This theory is really old and goes back to the 1700’s from small pox infections. In short, if someone is infected with a new virus, the immune system needs nearly 10 days before it can mount a response to a new disease. Getting infected with a high viral insult, say 100,000 viral particles in sneeze droplet versus 100 viral particles on a surface, is harder for the immune system to catch up. By the time the immune system builds up on day 10, the virus had a 1000 fold head start and the outcome is lethal. Elderly with a weaker immune system also may not be able to catch up with even a lower viral insult. So while we often think of infection as a binary outcome of “infected” or “not infected”, the race between the immune system and the virus is one that can vary (in addition to many other genetic, age and health dispositions people are looking at). All of these can make the difference between whether a healthy person ends up in the ICU or just has a bad fever and cough.

So in a matter of weeks, once our wildfires have largely run out of fuel from the fire breaks, we may have blood antibody testing ramping up to find out which people are immune and will not carry the virus to others (for example nearly 1/100 people in New York today are positive), and perhaps 1-2 therapies like remdesivir and immune plasma shown effective for those that end up in the hospital with severe cases. At that point I can certainly imagine a phased approach to getting back online in stages. With just a little bit of discipline, we can split companies into 2 groups that work separate shifts and can be merge 3-4 weeks later assuming no new infections in either group. And perhaps those who blood is seropositive for immunity can work double shifts. And with this largely behind us and a vaccine in 2021 we will look back to 2020 as the year we found a new level of appreciation for at least hand sanitizers and toilet paper!

Be Well
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Ajax » Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:47 pm

I'm not sure how effective our fire breaks have been in this country.

Out of a collective sense of denial and disbelief, government officials and citizens were slow to isolate and still actively resist it, even now. We've got churches holding in-person Easter services with large numbers of attendees and familes saying "fuck it" and gathering for Easter dinner. Even if these people are a tiny minority, they'll run around and spread the virus for 2 more weeks, dragging out the process ever longer.

When this first started I said "Surely we have the collective willpower to do the right thing without being forced into it by a tyrannical government like China?"
Nope, I was totally wrong. We are a nation of undisciplined, ignorant, selfish assholes. I am simply mortified. We'll have the highest infection rate and death rate numerically and per capita and perhaps we deserve it.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Jamie » Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:31 pm

Ajax wrote:I'm not sure how effective our fire breaks have been in this country.

Out of a collective sense of denial and disbelief, government officials and citizens were slow to isolate and still actively resist it, even now. We've got churches holding in-person Easter services with large numbers of attendees and familes saying "fuck it" and gathering for Easter dinner. Even if these people are a tiny minority, they'll run around and spread the virus for 2 more weeks, dragging out the process ever longer.

When this first started I said "Surely we have the collective willpower to do the right thing without being forced into it by a tyrannical government like China?"
Nope, I was totally wrong. We are a nation of undisciplined, ignorant, selfish assholes. I am simply mortified. We'll have the highest infection rate and death rate numerically and per capita and perhaps we deserve it.


I think it really varies by state. And we don't know exactly what methods worked in China.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Olaf Hart » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:05 pm

We need above 90% compliance for this strategy to work, and higher rates of compliance give better results so there is some room for a small number of assholes...

It’s like vaccination rates, we try to keep them above 95%.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby LarryHoward » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:49 pm

When I see someone using the JHU data, I cringe. At a population level, it will show trends but what it basically says is the more that the more people you test, the more cases you will find. I know from close friends experience that NY has no idea, by a significant margin, how many cases they actually have as they have not been testing anyone other than first responders, health care practitioners and some of those hospitalized. Those in the city not sick enough to be hospitalized get told to stay home and call 911 if they can't walk across a room without a break to catch their breath. Until they are tested (admitted), they are not counted. Testing is reported to be a bit easier to access in eastern LI in the last couple of weeks but prior to that, we had employees told to just stay home until they either got very sick or got better.

If you believe the case data and death rates, you have to believe that Italy, for example, has experienced a very significantly higher case mortality rate than the US. I think we are going to be able to one day estimate total cases per country based on antibody tests of a representative and stable population. In the mean time, total cases really represent tested and confirmed cases, which I see as pretty useless. With widespread testing, Iceland is finding that fully 50% of those tested positive are asymptomatic. It appears that only 20% of those who are symptomatic require hospitalizations so one could postulate that total case rate is approximately 10 times the number of those who are hospitalized.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Benno von Humpback » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:11 pm

Excellent points, Larry. However, Icelanders are not typical humans and may not know when they're sick. :mrgreen:
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Jamie » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:23 pm

JHU data has big issues, but I don't think it changes the overall conclusions much. Doesn't the fact that there is a large pool of untested means you are likely burning through the population at a higher than stated numbers and the testing rate is is generally improving over time?

What will be interesting in my mind is if the decentralized approach in the US means there will be big gaps in recovery times and if there are any relapses once things are opened?
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Olaf Hart » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:32 pm

This data also depends on how specific these tests are, such as false positives, false negatives and cross testing.

There have been a lot of coronaviruses in the community in the past, I can’t find data on how accurate this particular PCR test is.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Benno von Humpback » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:28 pm

Olaf Hart wrote:This data also depends on how specific these tests are, such as false positives, false negatives and cross testing.

There have been a lot of coronaviruses in the community in the past, I can’t find data on how accurate this particular PCR test is.

A 3% false negative rate has been reported, but RT-PCR should be very sensitive if done right on a good sample with good reagents. I think there is a lot of incompetence out there. We'll never find out the false positive rate until we start testing lots of people we know are healthy.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby H B » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:21 pm

Ajax wrote:I'm not sure how effective our fire breaks have been in this country.

Out of a collective sense of denial and disbelief, government officials and citizens were slow to isolate and still actively resist it, even now. We've got churches holding in-person Easter services with large numbers of attendees and familes saying "fuck it" and gathering for Easter dinner. Even if these people are a tiny minority, they'll run around and spread the virus for 2 more weeks, dragging out the process ever longer.

When this first started I said "Surely we have the collective willpower to do the right thing without being forced into it by a tyrannical government like China?"
Nope, I was totally wrong. We are a nation of undisciplined, ignorant, selfish assholes. I am simply mortified. We'll have the highest infection rate and death rate numerically and per capita and perhaps we deserve it.


Yup..I was one of those too, and when our sailing club said we should shut down for a month, I said, "why?", but now I get it and people are stupid and selfish. We've had car and foot traffic down here in Solomons like it is a perfect 75°F summer day for weeks. People will not stay home and want to get out. We sit on the 2nd story deck and watch them roll by every day. "Stay off my lawn" has a whole new meaning.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby BeauV » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:10 am

Ajax wrote:I'm not sure how effective our fire breaks have been in this country.

Out of a collective sense of denial and disbelief, government officials and citizens were slow to isolate and still actively resist it, even now. We've got churches holding in-person Easter services with large numbers of attendees and familes saying "fuck it" and gathering for Easter dinner. Even if these people are a tiny minority, they'll run around and spread the virus for 2 more weeks, dragging out the process ever longer.

When this first started I said "Surely we have the collective willpower to do the right thing without being forced into it by a tyrannical government like China?"
Nope, I was totally wrong. We are a nation of undisciplined, ignorant, selfish assholes. I am simply mortified. We'll have the highest infection rate and death rate numerically and per capita and perhaps we deserve it.


Ajax, I share your frustration with folks. Some friends where I live were livid that the police forced them off the beaches. They were ranting away on-line. Saying things like "How the F**K can I catch this swimming in saltwater." and "Surfing is a safe sport". The local police simply flew a drone over the beach to film the post-surfing beach party with people huddled around beach fires, standing shoulder to shoulder, hugging, clowning around and a few hooking up in the nooks of the cliffs. It was astounding. They couldn't have been closer together in a bar.

EDIT: I just looked it up. There were 79 citations issued on that one event. The folks were spread out along the street 6' apart and held there until they had been booked, fined, or taken to jail. No one decided they wanted to go into county jail.

That combined with a mass of $1,000 fines, payable before you leave the jail, resulted in a group grubling but un-bowed surfers retreating to the internet.
Last edited by BeauV on Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby BeauV » Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:19 am

Having had one heck of an education on these topics, but still being just a guy reading everything, I'm with Larry. We have no idea how many folks have it and are either asymptomatic or it's not bad enough to go to a hospital. Sunday's NY Times chronicled what it was like inside a hospital in the Bronx. I wouldn't go anywhere near a place like that unless i went alone and was so bad off I was pretty certain I'd die if I didn't go.

"Iceland is finding that fully 50% of those tested positive are asymptomatic. It appears that only 20% of those who are symptomatic require hospitalizations so one could postulate that total case rate is approximately 10 times the number of those who are hospitalized." is the point. The W.H.O. has been consistent throughout the last 60 days that this is the case. It's only the folks in the US putting a political spin on things who have doubted this.

Note that none of this information supports the crazy claim that the disease has been circulating in California since November. I do wish some of these folks who are reasonably intelligent in other fields were self-aware enough to utilize logic. They are right up there with Benno's Islandic folks who can't tell if they're sick.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby BeauV » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:08 am

Fun facts:

Being on lockdown has reduced our total milage/week to 23 over a 5 week period. The previous norm was about 900/week. The low was zero for a week and the high was 72, we ran a lot of errands to stores.

Because we have electric cars, our Electrical bill dropped by 72%. But because we're home and heating a lot more of the house for more hours our gas bill (used for heating) went up by 23%. A year ago we shifted to all LED lighting, which dropped electrical usage by almost 1/3. The only big things left are the fridge/freezer and the ovens.

In the three cars we have that burn gasoline, we haven't bought a drop in three months. For the first time in my life, I'm wondering how long gas will last in the tanks.

Food purchases are way up, over 40%, but spending on food is way down 53% because we're not going out. Giving the Admiral an unlimited budget (not that I control it) has resulted in MUCH better food, the family eating far healthier, and I'm losing weight steadily. Restaurant food is fattening.

Alcohol consumption is up a bit, around 15%. Cocktail hour has been moved forward to 1730 from 1830 hrs, which would account for it. No limit on spending here either. If we're going to be shut in, we're going to lubricated by the best. :)
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Jamie » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:21 am

The Chinese and the WHO absolutely deserve to be taken to the woodshed. I hope people understand this as the extent that China has coopted international institutions to serve their political ends. You also realize that the Chinese consulate also wrote a resolution for the Wisconsin senate to approve praising their handling of the virus. That’s didn’t work out so well, but not all governments can say no so easily.


At the same time, this by no means absolves the current administration’s handling of COVID19 or how a certain segment of our countrymen behave.

In my mind 30-35 days after the leveling off means that at the most optimistic we have until June to wait.
Last edited by Jamie on Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Ajax » Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:24 am

H B wrote:
Ajax wrote:I'm not sure how effective our fire breaks have been in this country.

Out of a collective sense of denial and disbelief, government officials and citizens were slow to isolate and still actively resist it, even now. We've got churches holding in-person Easter services with large numbers of attendees and familes saying "fuck it" and gathering for Easter dinner. Even if these people are a tiny minority, they'll run around and spread the virus for 2 more weeks, dragging out the process ever longer.

When this first started I said "Surely we have the collective willpower to do the right thing without being forced into it by a tyrannical government like China?"
Nope, I was totally wrong. We are a nation of undisciplined, ignorant, selfish assholes. I am simply mortified. We'll have the highest infection rate and death rate numerically and per capita and perhaps we deserve it.


Yup..I was one of those too, and when our sailing club said we should shut down for a month, I said, "why?", but now I get it and people are stupid and selfish. We've had car and foot traffic down here in Solomons like it is a perfect 75°F summer day for weeks. People will not stay home and want to get out. We sit on the 2nd story deck and watch them roll by every day. "Stay off my lawn" has a whole new meaning.


Dude, I'm not talking about you, working on your boat alone, at the dock. I'm talking about pastors filling up churches, people in grocery stores fondling all the veg, not wearing masks or gloves, stressing out the grocery store employees. I'm talking about the crush of people at the DC watermen's seafood market.

I have no problems with the drive-in church services where car windows are rolled up and they're tuned in via the car radio, or the solo kayaker, paddler, jogger or cyclist. I'm not saying we should cover our homes with sheet plastic and not venture outside.

Ranger M says the Park Service is in a unique sort of jam. Parks are open so that people may exercise and get fresh air while maintaining the proper distance. Problem is, EVERYONE is going to the parks for exercise and fresh air. Trails get crowded, personal space gets reduced. The Rangers are trying to modulate the guest populations to allow recreation while maintaining distance. That means lower occupancy and asking people to be considerate and vacate after a reasonable period of time so other people can get in and enjoy the park.

I would gladly donate Beau's left testicle for some solo sailing time but I'm pretty certain that the Kennedy woman's death has soured our governor on relaxing the boating ban because he doesn't want to devote resources to plucking infected morons out of the water.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby Benno von Humpback » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:44 am

BeauV wrote:They are right up there with Benno's Islandic folks who can't tell if they're sick.

I'm just ragging on my Icelandic soon to be son in law and his ilk. He's actually one of the more neurotic individuals I've ever met, but a sweetheart.
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Re: Conoravirus ...

Postby H B » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:59 am

I have a question. Using Beau's buddy Lance's experience...how can people get the virus and not know it? If you are carrying a high fever and sweats and body aches so bad, how could you not know you are sick? Does 'asymptomatic' mean they are spreading the virus and just now showing symptoms yet? I thought the incubation period was like 4 or 5 days? I guess you could do a lot of spreading in 5 days if you grabbed a dirty door handle before the weekend and then went to Home Depot or the grocery and fondled all the produce..

edit - I just read Jamie's post from "Greg"..that pretty much explained it...I guess it is all about 'viral load'.
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