Conoravirus ...

[Ajax]

Those folks are definitely at risk, but I had in mind Latinos, who are at increased social risk, due to crowded housing, lack of access to health care, and risky conditions of employment

I've heard quite a lot of hulabaloo made of Latinos being at higher risk due to their tendency to live in multi-generational housing. While it's true that they are at higher risk of exposure due to conditions of employment, my experience is that the high numbers of family under the same roof is more of a conscious preference and a cultural trait rather than a condition of poverty.

Latinos, like Italians have extremely strong family bonds and religious community. Adult kids often stay with the parents to support them. Give a Latino (or substitute Italian, if you prefer) a million bucks and instead of building 2 houses (one for parents and one for the adult working kids) they'll build one big house and all live in it happily. When Abuela needs to go to the emergency room, the dutiful son doesn't just drive her to the hospital alone, the whole family packs up and goes because everyone is concerned.

My dad and uncles didn't move out of the house until they were well into adulthood and getting married and it had nothing to do with not making enough money to strike out on their own. As the 3rd generation, I am fully Americanized and ejected myself at 17 years old. I also joined the military which obviously doesn't lend itself to living with your parents. Hell, my own dad kept asking me when I was moving back to Florida to be with the family until I finally put my foot down and said "The work is in Maryland, and this is where I'm staying."

Yeah, Latinos are at higher risk but let's be careful not to transfer our own values onto another group of people and treating it as a social injustice.

[H B]

Ajax, I hadn't thought about it that way but that is an interesting way to look at it. I thought it was weird that some of Laura's family living in Boston (Somerville to be exact) had 3 generations living in one house. All were employed but there did not seem to be a reason or desire to move out. One of the sons happily had a recliner in his small bedroom which he sat in instead of just flopping on the bed to watch TV. That room was his 'part' of the house. The other son lived in the attic which was converted to a bedroom and had a skylight and everything. I guess that is pretty typical up there and/or in cities.
I grew up in Southern Maryland, and my father and mother had just moved here for a job at Pax before I was born, so rural upbringings with grass and yards, and space between houses, and generally one sibling per bedroom, and maybe even a "spare" bedroom for guests is what I consider 'normal', or Americanized, I guess.

[Jamie]

I think it's more of a issue that minorities tend to work "essential" jobs that expose them to Corona like meatpacking, construction, moving...etc...

How many think that meatpackers demographics match that of the wider US?

[Olaf Hart]

The college thing seems to be a driver for kids to leave home early in the US, over here kids live at home while they go to university, and tend to hang around the house till we’ll into their twenties...

[Ajax]

I think it's more of a issue that minorities tend to work "essential" jobs that expose them to Corona like meatpacking, construction, moving...etc...

How many think that meatpackers demographics match that of the wider US?

I did say that I agree that Latinos work in higher risk exposure jobs.

Funny thing about meat packing- ICE raided a meat packer and arrested over 100 employees least year. The meat packer held a job fair a few days later to replace them and many whites and African Americans applied and were hired. It's not all black and white, pardon the pun.

[Benno von Humpback]

Those folks are definitely at risk, but I had in mind Latinos, who are at increased social risk, due to crowded housing, lack of access to health care, and risky conditions of employment

I've heard quite a lot of hulabaloo made of Latinos being at higher risk due to their tendency to live in multi-generational housing. While it's true that they are at higher risk of exposure due to conditions of employment, my experience is that the high numbers of family under the same roof is more of a conscious preference and a cultural trait rather than a condition of poverty.

Latinos, like Italians have extremely strong family bonds and religious community. Adult kids often stay with the parents to support them. Give a Latino (or substitute Italian, if you prefer) a million bucks and instead of building 2 houses (one for parents and one for the adult working kids) they'll build one big house and all live in it happily. When Abuela needs to go to the emergency room, the dutiful son doesn't just drive her to the hospital alone, the whole family packs up and goes because everyone is concerned.

My dad and uncles didn't move out of the house until they were well into adulthood and getting married and it had nothing to do with not making enough money to strike out on their own. As the 3rd generation, I am fully Americanized and ejected myself at 17 years old. I also joined the military which obviously doesn't lend itself to living with your parents. Hell, my own dad kept asking me when I was moving back to Florida to be with the family until I finally put my foot down and said "The work is in Maryland, and this is where I'm staying."

Yeah, Latinos are at higher risk but let's be careful not to transfer our own values onto another group of people and treating it as a social injustice.

Who said anything about latino crowding being a social injustice?

[Jamie]

I think it's more of a issue that minorities tend to work "essential" jobs that expose them to Corona like meatpacking, construction, moving...etc...

How many think that meatpackers demographics match that of the wider US?

I did say that I agree that Latinos work in higher risk exposure jobs.

Funny thing about meat packing- ICE raided a meat packer and arrested over 100 employees least year. The meat packer held a job fair a few days later to replace them and many whites and African Americans applied and were hired. It's not all black and white, pardon the pun.

Sorry, that wasn't aimed at you. Just an observation. Few, if any, things are black and white. Amazing that meatpackers can get away with such a prevalence of illegal hires.

I've actually worked illegally a couple times in my life. Once as an English teacher, once in a Taiwanese video game factory building and repairing video game consoles. I drove around metro-Taipei on motorcycle with a tool kit to service all of the video game parlors - that were mostly run by gangsters. And once for an arms dealer translating mil-spec into Chinese. Paid in cash off the books, fibbing to immigration officers, buying fake school attendance, avoiding raids; not my proudest moments, but not terrible. It did help cover my college tuition. It is a scary thing though when you have no recourse over your employer.

Man, I think my parents would have died of shame if I had stayed home after graduation. On the other hand my Taiwanese ex-wife's family were puzzled when I wasn't so eager to move in with them.

[Ajax]

Those folks are definitely at risk, but I had in mind Latinos, who are at increased social risk, due to crowded housing, lack of access to health care, and risky conditions of employment

I've heard quite a lot of hulabaloo made of Latinos being at higher risk due to their tendency to live in multi-generational housing. While it's true that they are at higher risk of exposure due to conditions of employment, my experience is that the high numbers of family under the same roof is more of a conscious preference and a cultural trait rather than a condition of poverty.

Latinos, like Italians have extremely strong family bonds and religious community. Adult kids often stay with the parents to support them. Give a Latino (or substitute Italian, if you prefer) a million bucks and instead of building 2 houses (one for parents and one for the adult working kids) they'll build one big house and all live in it happily. When Abuela needs to go to the emergency room, the dutiful son doesn't just drive her to the hospital alone, the whole family packs up and goes because everyone is concerned.

My dad and uncles didn't move out of the house until they were well into adulthood and getting married and it had nothing to do with not making enough money to strike out on their own. As the 3rd generation, I am fully Americanized and ejected myself at 17 years old. I also joined the military which obviously doesn't lend itself to living with your parents. Hell, my own dad kept asking me when I was moving back to Florida to be with the family until I finally put my foot down and said "The work is in Maryland, and this is where I'm staying."

Yeah, Latinos are at higher risk but let's be careful not to transfer our own values onto another group of people and treating it as a social injustice.

Who said anything about latino crowding being a social injustice?

The tone of many articles in the media is that Latinos are crowded because they are poor, not because of choice. Poverty being the social injustice.

[Charlie]

“I've actually worked illegally a couple times in my life. Once as an English teacher, once in a Taiwanese video game factory building and repairing video game consoles. I drove around metro-Taipei on motorcycle with a tool kit to service all of the video game parlors - that were mostly run by gangsters. And once for an arms dealer translating mil-spec into Chinese. Paid in cash off the books, fibbing to immigration officers, buying fake school attendance, avoiding raids; not my proudest moments, but not terrible. It did help cover my college tuition. It is a scary thing though when you have no recourse over your employer.”


WHAT?!?

Jamie, I want to read your autobiography.

[BeauV]

We live in a loose concave with two of our four kids. Separate houses, but other than that almost completely shared. Three or four meals a week together, the Admiral and I home-school the grandkids, and when I need help the young bucks are right there lifting beams, concrete, rocks.... It's wonderful.

I think that returning to an extended family is one of the best things which has ever happened to me!!

[Olaf Hart]

So, do you all live in the area below the curve?

[Jamie]

“I've actually worked illegally a couple times in my life. Once as an English teacher, once in a Taiwanese video game factory building and repairing video game consoles. I drove around metro-Taipei on motorcycle with a tool kit to service all of the video game parlors - that were mostly run by gangsters. And once for an arms dealer translating mil-spec into Chinese. Paid in cash off the books, fibbing to immigration officers, buying fake school attendance, avoiding raids; not my proudest moments, but not terrible. It did help cover my college tuition. It is a scary thing though when you have no recourse over your employer.”


WHAT?!?

Jamie, I want to read your autobiography.

Well, it's a bit mundane, really. I needed money for school. Sure, I grew up a boarding school brat in CT but with my parents divorce, I suddenly found myself having to pay my own way since my dad - well - he wanted to keep his money from my mom. Just working in the dining hall, (which I did), and financial aid weren't going to cover it, so I spent Summer vacations and most breaks, living with my then girl friend that I had met during my gap year and her extended family in Taiwan. We married after I graduated. Taiwan was still under martial and one-party rule at the time and the economy was booming. I'd get these super cheap tickets from ads in the back of the Chinese newspaper. You'd pay full value and then a couple weeks later a check would come in the mail for the difference between what you paid and the price advertised in the newspaper. I'd get my mom to front me the money. Let's just say she put up with a lot. Once you got there on a tourist visa, you could renew if you were attending Chinese school. So I would go to these fake-ish schools that sold attendance for visa renewals. I actually signed up for a real school and attended classes. Interestingly my school was just a block or two away from the now world famous Ding Tai Feng. Back then it wasn't so famous so I could eat there for lunch after classes. Then off to work. If it was less than 3 months I just worked. I'd find a job in the newspaper or sometimes people would approach me on the street with a job. Being bi-lingual was worth a lot back then and Taiwan was a much more "innocent" place. Usually I'd buy some illegally registered motor bike as there was no subway and no way for me to get a license or register a vehicle. When it came time to go home, I'd sell the bike to whomever and since the currency wasn't fully convertible so I'd have to find a jeweler or someone who wanted hard currency to exchange my savings. Then I'd go back to the US with the cash in hand. Of course, this was during martial law, so if you got caught with any of this, it meant a lot of trouble. That started 30+ years in Greater China, of which 20 or so were in Taiwan. I didn't speak to my father again until after grad school.

[BeauV]

So, do you all live in the area below the curve?

OH, I guess I don’t understand: “below the curve”

There is a serious curve in the CA Route 1 freeway called “The Fish Hook”. Do you mean that?

[BeauV]

Jamie,

That is one hell of an “explanation”. I thought I had a crazy college period... I’m never going to say that again. WOW - just WWWOOOOWW!

[Jamie]

Let's say unlike many kids I knew why I was there. It wasn't great school but I made sure I graduated Magna Cum Laude with distinction and Phi Beta Kappa while all this was going on.

[Olaf Hart]

So, do you all live in the area below the curve?

OH, I guess I don’t understand: “below the curve”

There is a serious curve in the CA Route 1 freeway called “The Fish Hook”. Do you mean that?

Beau, your post mentioned you all live in a concave.
I suspect you meant to say conclave...

[BeauV]

So, do you all live in the area below the curve?

OH, I guess I don’t understand: “below the curve”

There is a serious curve in the CA Route 1 freeway called “The Fish Hook”. Do you mean that?

Beau, your post mentioned you all live in a concave.
I suspect you meant to say conclave...

I'm a dope, I didn't notice!!

There really is a place in Highway 1 that is called The Fish Hook and people around here often talk about living above or below the fish hook, which is what I thought you were talking about. There is such a massive traffic jam there that if you live on the Silicon Valley side fo the hook your house is worth more than if you live on the Santa Cruz side. Pretty funny that I didn't type and read carefully enough to even see this. It's a decreasing radius 270° turn which dumps onto a high speed section of the freeway.

The Fish Hook

[Olaf Hart]

I should have flagged “concave” in my post, my mistake.

It’s an online version of poor timing or forgetting the punchline, the joke is lost if it can’t be delivered clearly.

Oh well, another learning opportunity....

[LarryHoward]

So, do you all live in the area below the curve?

OH, I guess I don’t understand: “below the curve”

There is a serious curve in the CA Route 1 freeway called “The Fish Hook”. Do you mean that?

Beau, your post mentioned you all live in a concave.
I suspect you meant to say conclave...

I'm a dope, I didn't notice!!

There really is a place in Highway 1 that is called The Fish Hook and people around here often talk about living above or below the fish hook, which is what I thought you were talking about. There is such a massive traffic jam there that if you live on the Silicon Valley side fo the hook your house is worth more than if you live on the Santa Cruz side. Pretty funny that I didn't type and read carefully enough to even see this. It's a decreasing radius 270° turn which dumps onto a high speed section of the freeway.

The Fish Hook

Ahh. Decreasing radius access ramps to high speed roads. I get it that terrain, existing development and a couple of other reasons may make them seem desirable to planners, but what a terrible design, particularly if you ever drove an early 911.....

[Olaf Hart]

So, do you all live in the area below the curve?

OH, I guess I don’t understand: “below the curve”

There is a serious curve in the CA Route 1 freeway called “The Fish Hook”. Do you mean that?

Beau, your post mentioned you all live in a concave.
I suspect you meant to say conclave...

I'm a dope, I didn't notice!!

There really is a place in Highway 1 that is called The Fish Hook and people around here often talk about living above or below the fish hook, which is what I thought you were talking about. There is such a massive traffic jam there that if you live on the Silicon Valley side fo the hook your house is worth more than if you live on the Santa Cruz side. Pretty funny that I didn't type and read carefully enough to even see this. It's a decreasing radius 270° turn which dumps onto a high speed section of the freeway.

The Fish Hook

Ahh. Decreasing radius access ramps to high speed roads. I get it that terrain, existing development and a couple of other reasons may make them seem desirable to planners, but what a terrible design, particularly if you ever drove an early 911.....

The road probably has the wrong camber as well.
I will take your 911 and raise it to a 356...

[LarryHoward]

So, do you all live in the area below the curve?

OH, I guess I don’t understand: “below the curve”

There is a serious curve in the CA Route 1 freeway called “The Fish Hook”. Do you mean that?

Beau, your post mentioned you all live in a concave.
I suspect you meant to say conclave...

I'm a dope, I didn't notice!!

There really is a place in Highway 1 that is called The Fish Hook and people around here often talk about living above or below the fish hook, which is what I thought you were talking about. There is such a massive traffic jam there that if you live on the Silicon Valley side fo the hook your house is worth more than if you live on the Santa Cruz side. Pretty funny that I didn't type and read carefully enough to even see this. It's a decreasing radius 270° turn which dumps onto a high speed section of the freeway.

The Fish Hook

Ahh. Decreasing radius access ramps to high speed roads. I get it that terrain, existing development and a couple of other reasons may make them seem desirable to planners, but what a terrible design, particularly if you ever drove an early 911.....

The road probably has the wrong camber as well.
I will take your 911 and raise it to a 356...

Just imagine overcooking that corner just a little and having to lift at just the wrong time.

While in Memphis as a young man, some friends and I went out for an evening of blues, beer and BBQ. I rode with another guy in a Vette and 3 others rode in a somewhat modified Camaro. We hit a decreasing radius freeway entrance with enough speed that we ended up drifting out into the empty traffic lane in the Vette. The guys following us in the Camaro were not so lucky. They lost the back end and clipped a car already in the freeway as the back end let go. Not a fun end to the evening.

[Jamie]

Looks like a hill was compressing the clover? Modern cars will just fuel cut and differential brake you into safety

[Charlie]

“I've actually worked illegally a couple times in my life. Once as an English teacher, once in a Taiwanese video game factory building and repairing video game consoles. I drove around metro-Taipei on motorcycle with a tool kit to service all of the video game parlors - that were mostly run by gangsters. And once for an arms dealer translating mil-spec into Chinese. Paid in cash off the books, fibbing to immigration officers, buying fake school attendance, avoiding raids; not my proudest moments, but not terrible. It did help cover my college tuition. It is a scary thing though when you have no recourse over your employer.”


WHAT?!?

Jamie, I want to read your autobiography.

Well, it's a bit mundane, really. I needed money for school. Sure, I grew up a boarding school brat in CT but with my parents divorce, I suddenly found myself having to pay my own way since my dad - well - he wanted to keep his money from my mom. Just working in the dining hall, (which I did), and financial aid weren't going to cover it, so I spent Summer vacations and most breaks, living with my then girl friend that I had met during my gap year and her extended family in Taiwan. We married after I graduated. Taiwan was still under martial and one-party rule at the time and the economy was booming. I'd get these super cheap tickets from ads in the back of the Chinese newspaper. You'd pay full value and then a couple weeks later a check would come in the mail for the difference between what you paid and the price advertised in the newspaper. I'd get my mom to front me the money. Let's just say she put up with a lot. Once you got there on a tourist visa, you could renew if you were attending Chinese school. So I would go to these fake-ish schools that sold attendance for visa renewals. I actually signed up for a real school and attended classes. Interestingly my school was just a block or two away from the now world famous Ding Tai Feng. Back then it wasn't so famous so I could eat there for lunch after classes. Then off to work. If it was less than 3 months I just worked. I'd find a job in the newspaper or sometimes people would approach me on the street with a job. Being bi-lingual was worth a lot back then and Taiwan was a much more "innocent" place. Usually I'd buy some illegally registered motor bike as there was no subway and no way for me to get a license or register a vehicle. When it came time to go home, I'd sell the bike to whomever and since the currency wasn't fully convertible so I'd have to find a jeweler or someone who wanted hard currency to exchange my savings. Then I'd go back to the US with the cash in hand. Of course, this was during martial law, so if you got caught with any of this, it meant a lot of trouble. That started 30+ years in Greater China, of which 20 or so were in Taiwan. I didn't speak to my father again until after grad school.

Given all the changes since that time, you were definitely living through History there.

[LarryHoward]

Looks like a hill was compressing the clover? Modern cars will just fuel cut and differential brake you into safety

What fun is that?

<end thread drift>

[Jamie]

Looks like a hill was compressing the clover? Modern cars will just fuel cut and differential brake you into safety

What fun is that?

<end thread drift>

None at all. Cured with some e-tape over the nanny-light.

<drift ended>

I find myself a bit disappointed we haven't moved through this by now. What are the odds we're mostly done by August?

[BeauV]

Looks like a hill was compressing the clover? Modern cars will just fuel cut and differential brake you into safety

What fun is that?

<end thread drift>

Larry, I used to own a '76 930 Turbo. The Fish Hook was the reason I stopped drinking ANYTHING with alcohol in it before driving that car. There is a little bit of positive banking, but just where the turn joins into the main lanes of Highway 17, it flattens out to the same grade as the freeway. This is precisely where you need traction most in a Porsche as you don't want to lift before getting the front and back end lined up with the straight ahead. I never lost it, but I got close enough that I had to pull over and have a talk with myself about that corner with that car.

In contrast, the Morgan just starts to push and one can safely overcook it with the only consequence being less rubber on the left front tire coming out of the turn. It is great fun to take friends around that corner in the Morgan at a "reasonable" speed (no sliding). Then, just as you get a good look at the traffic you're merging with and the banking in the turn fades away you put your food down and drift out of the onramp and over to the fast land in about a 20° drift. The car is so predictable that just a little ease on the gas and the back end will come into line as you're approaching about 80 MPH. That maneuver REALLY gets folks heart's pumping! LOL!!!

[LarryHoward]

Looks like a hill was compressing the clover? Modern cars will just fuel cut and differential brake you into safety

What fun is that?

<end thread drift>

None at all. Cured with some e-tape over the nanny-light.

<drift ended>

I find myself a bit disappointed we haven't moved through this by now. What are the odd we're mostly done by August?

Given that very little of the population has actually had the virus and we moved the goalposts from "flatten the curve to avoid overloading the hospitals" to "every new case is a failure to shut enough things down", I expect we'll be doing this for another year. Mixed feelings. Looks like the fatality rate may be as low as 0.5% or so (2-3 times the flu but across a potentially much larger infected population). Some reports are that transmission from surface contact is actually very unlikely given reasonable hand washing, keeping your fingers out of your nose, etc. Person to person contact is clearly how it spreads and We have had 15 local deaths from COVID 19 and more die from motor vehicle accidents since case 1 back in early March. Mask are a solid preventative measure but becoming a rising political issue.

I'm getting a lot of mask push back at work. Not unreasonable given a small number of people in a big facility, but as temps climb my blue collar folks are getting tired of masks, even a couple who were pretty adamant that they wanted everybody close to them to wear one 2 months ago. Our local case rate, outside of a VA Home that makes up 40% of the cases, is 0.2% of the county population (.35 if you count the 25% of the patients and 5% of the staff at the VA Home). Many, but not all folks with compromised immune systems or other comorbidities are certainly concerned. Contact tracing is noticeably better and a lot of people are of the thinking that 2 cases per thousand isn't a lot to worry about. I've had to make the occasional run to Lowes for needed bits to fix broken things (with a 68 YO house, something is always breaking) and see about 95% mask compliance but a noticeable minority with masks that are protecting chins only. I guess that way they can meet the "wear a mask to enter" but still show us all that they are not scared sheep.

As we are "red corner" of a Blue state, we have a visible portion of the population playing the "personal freedom" card. Locally, I think we'll see open protests by or before the 4th of July. We already have a former (failed) state delegate rabble rousing on churches, restaurant openings, etc. A minority, but a vocal and visible one.

[Benno von Humpback]

I think the only hope for mask compliance is to put a human face on it, as in, you're protecting individual vulnerable people, directly or via your contacts. Should even work in "Red" areas if people can be made to listen and think for a second.

[BeauV]

Returning to the topic..... (I know, I'd forgotten too. But the thread title clued me in.)

The StFYC is trying hard to sort out how to re-open legally and more important safely. We've read and re-read the various missives from various CDC, Federal, State, County, and City governments. Not only do they not agree with each other, but they are also often inconsistent with each other. Ah me. Up at the Tinsley Island outstation, we run a swimming pool, restaurant, bar, etc... Some of the members are ready to party, and some have even shown up on the island. (Staff had to gently tell them the island is closed and they have to leave.) Of course, there are signs and the closure has been in every communication from the leadership. Ah me.

The City Clubhouse in San Francisco is going to have to operate under quite different rules from the outstation, due to City regulations. Just getting all the regulations sorted out is driving us nuts. But, we've had two excellent lawyers (members) who have been generous enough with their time to make the effort. However, the doctors on our team then point out the "real risk factors" and things get really weird. As this has become highly politicized, some of the outliers are getting downright hostile to each other; something genuinely sad to see amongst life-long friends.

Finally, after personally having read through most of the regulations, which took a long time, and trying to discover the definitions of terms, I gave up. It appears that the authors of these regulations have intentionally used terms like "high touch surface" without defining it. While it seems like an elevator call button is "high touch", is the control button on the boat hoist? Then, there's is a complete lack comprehension of surfaces that are outdoors in full sunlight vs those inside an elevator.

Doing this right and "by the book" appears to be quite literally impossible. If I didn't know better I'd say that these ambiguous rules were written by lawyers to intentionally create a field day for lawsuits!

Larry, as someone who is trying to do the right thing and base decisions on the best available science, your failed state delegate rabble-rousing is infuriating. It is SO MUCH EASIER to complain than it is to do anything constructive. Personally, I think the choice is simple: If folks want to endanger me or my kids by not wearing a mask, then they've given me tacit approval to defend myself. It's precisly like waving a gun around in public with the safety off. Sure, they didn't "intend" to shoot anyone, but they're acting like an idiot. What's an appropriate "defense" against this sort of behavour? I've considered a spray bottle filled with water and labeled CAUTION: COVID-19 Virus Samples. Then I could wave it around, hook it over my arm, accidentally drop it occasionally and make it squirt. Of course, I'd wear my goggles and respirator so I was safe. - I'm clearly ranting here.

[BeauV]

I think the only hope for mask compliance is to put a human face on it, as in, you're protecting individual vulnerable people, directly or via your contacts. Should even work in "Red" areas if people can be made to listen and think for a second.

Eric, I've tried the "protecting individual vulnerable people" and gotten absolutely nowhere. We live in a selfish everyman for himself society, which infuriates me.