Perceptions

[cap10ed]

I found this on a car site for the Acura NSX sports car. The story has an insightful lesson for all and the elders here on Scants have probably witnessed this scenario many times over. Yachts tend to bring a real mix to the party. Funny stuff

"Short story..... when I was 23 I worked at Executive Acura in North Haven, CT. I have wanted an NSX since I was in High School and I would sit in everyone that came in for service while working at that dealer. One day in the Winter an NSX came in on a flat bed destroyed. I asked the service Manager what happened and he said durng the last snow storm the owner went off the road commuting to work. I lost it and got real animated, stating what's wrong with this guy!! With all the money he has to own one of these can't he get a beater or a jeep for the damn snow!!!!! ........... The service Manager looked at me and said, John he owns a couple Lambos and 2 F-cars, the NSX is his winter beater.
That was my first lesson in perception and things being relative."

[Soñadora]

That's a good one.

Years ago I pulled up to a clients building in my 1988 Porsche 951 (944 turbo). The owner came out and admired the car. "Sports cars are fun. I just bought my wife a new Saturn Sky. I got a great deal on it, negotiated the dealer down to $32,000." He looked at my car, smiled and shook his head. "Paid a lot less than you did I'm sure. No way I could afford one of those." I didn't say anything.

I paid $7000

[SloopJonB]

That's how I've always done it too. My wife always wanted a Jag XJ but since an E-Type was the first car I bought I knew better than to buy another Jag. Finally after Ford had cleaned up Jag's act I bought her a very nice used XJR (wonderful car) for her 60th birthday. Paid $10 grand. The neighbours think I paid $80.

I paid $25K for my last Corvette - had 27K miles and was loaded, essentially a new car. The original owner traded it in on a Honda Odyssey. Those 27K miles cost him $40 grand, just in depreciation.

"New" has never been a big deal to me - it's very expensive for that short term rush.

I read a quote once that the only things you have to have new are food and underwear. That's pretty close to my philosophy.

[Soñadora]

The interesting thing is that list on my car when it was new... $65k in 1988 dollars. WTF?

Don't get me wrong, I am mad about the car. It's really a mini marvel in my mind. But holy crap...$65,000? I think new, Soñadora was around $40k. Hard to believe people were that gullible.

Then again, the car has some cool features that are still very expensive and have contributed to its longevity: galvanized steel body, aluminum engine block, transmission, and cooling system. Intercooled turbocharger, stainless steel exhaust. Multi-link independent suspension.

[kimbottles]

I buy used VW's.........I am not in your guy's class..........ok maybe I am just cheap.

[Soñadora]

I buy used VW's.........I am not in your guy's class..........ok maybe I am just cheap.

I keep getting told by the 911 guys that's what I own.

On my List of Things I'd Love To Do When I Retire, is to have a small machine shop where I can work on old VWs and Porsches. Mainly VWs. I've rebuilt several old VeeDub motors and it is very rewarding, easy work.

[SloopJonB]

The interesting thing is that list on my car when it was new... $65k in 1988 dollars. WTF?

Don't get me wrong, I am mad about the car. It's really a mini marvel in my mind. But holy crap...$65,000? I think new, Soñadora was around $40k. Hard to believe people were that gullible.

Then again, the car has some cool features that are still very expensive and have contributed to its longevity: galvanized steel body, aluminum engine block, transmission, and cooling system. Intercooled turbocharger, stainless steel exhaust. Multi-link independent suspension.

Alloy engines don't contribute to longevity - just try overheating one and you'll see. For longevity you want an engine of Detroit Wonder Metal (cast iron).

Alloy engines are lighter - period. I hate the sound of the morning sickness they suffer from until they heat up and the clearances go into spec - sounds like the cam has gone flat.

[Soñadora]

The interesting thing is that list on my car when it was new... $65k in 1988 dollars. WTF?

Don't get me wrong, I am mad about the car. It's really a mini marvel in my mind. But holy crap...$65,000? I think new, Soñadora was around $40k. Hard to believe people were that gullible.

Then again, the car has some cool features that are still very expensive and have contributed to its longevity: galvanized steel body, aluminum engine block, transmission, and cooling system. Intercooled turbocharger, stainless steel exhaust. Multi-link independent suspension.

Alloy engines don't contribute to longevity - just try overheating one and you'll see. For longevity you want an engine of Detroit Wonder Metal (cast iron).

Alloy engines are lighter - period. I hate the sound of the morning sickness they suffer from until they heat up and the clearances go into spec - sounds like the cam has gone flat.

haha...yeah, there is that clackity clack.

but around here, anything that can battle corrosion will contribute to longevity. Of course, since I don't drive my car in the rain, snow, sleet, drizzle, fog, or anywhere near a basset hound in summer, moisture really isn't an issue.

[JoeP]

After having put about 300,000 miles on a Civic and over 200,000 miles on an Accord with no servicing other than the factory recommended services I would have to disagree about cast iron being the key to longevity in automobile engines. I wrecked the Civic but I am sure I could have gotten another 50,000+ miles from it before any problems showed up. I still have the Accord and am in the process of selling it since I bought my FR-S. It runs beautifully and will go for many more miles. I think longevity comes from proper design and engineering of whatever material you use for a product. Aluminum engines and aluminum engine parts had a rough time when they were introduced. My Datsun roadster had an aluminum block on a cast iron head. The different coefficients of expansion and a poorly designed cooling system had me machining or replacing the head 4-5 times in the 3 years I owned the car. Nowadays the technology has matured and aluminum engines are just as reliable if not more so than cast iron ones. A bit of noise on start up isn't much different from the clatter of hydraulic lifters on '50s-60s v-8s until oil got to the lifters.

[SloopJonB]

I agree that alloy engines can and do last an amazingly long time now - remember when 100K miles was generally regarded as the life of a car?

The fact is though that they last that long in spite of being aluminium, not because of it.

Like I said, if you doubt it, just overheat one once.

$$$$$$$

[cap10ed]

I have a Honda Pilot 2003 vintage at 345,000 km doesn’t eat oil or spew oil. I sold our 1984 Honda Prelude at 280 km to a buddy and he just reached 320k and the front seal is just starting to weep, and my 1974 Alfa GTV at 95,000 mi leaks at all the regular Alfa spots. Oil pan, transmission, head gasket. Me thinks design has a lot to do with it and regular maintenance . The new ride is a 2010 TDI VW wagon I mentioned on here earlier . Love it. Son’s the Alfa is so old most people have no clue what it is. They just think it’s expensive because of the name. Bought it in 1980 for $6800. Not like you top shelf Porsche boys.The old Alfa maxim the car really is a poor man’s Porsche

[JoeP]

Geeze Ed there you go throwing that GTV in front of me again. I would love to have an Alfa again despite all the usual afflictions. Maybe I will inherit my cousin's ('77?). He has owned it from new and has a huge number of miles on it from driving up and down the coast and all over the country. Sigh...

[Soñadora]

huh....I thought a Karmann Ghia was a poor man's Porsche

[cap10ed]

Geeze Ed there you go throwing that GTV in front of me again. I would love to have an Alfa again despite all the usual afflictions. Maybe I will inherit my cousin's ('77?). He has owned it from new and has a huge number of miles on it from driving up and down the coast and all over the country. Sigh...

My apology Joe. Your cousins 77 would be the next generation 4 banger or did it have the V-6?
Rick the older Karmann Gia rag top is one pretty ride done up right. I didn’t know the front clip was so labour intensive to make. I doubt they made a lot of money on that car.

[JoeP]

Geeze Ed there you go throwing that GTV in front of me again. I would love to have an Alfa again despite all the usual afflictions. Maybe I will inherit my cousin's ('77?). He has owned it from new and has a huge number of miles on it from driving up and down the coast and all over the country. Sigh...

My apology Joe. Your cousins 77 would be the next generation 4 banger or did it have the V-6?
Rick the older Karmann Gia rag top is one pretty ride done up right. I didn’t know the front clip was so labour intensive to make. I doubt they made a lot of money on that car.

Big stinky brain fart there Ed. My sedan was a '77 Alfetta with the transaxle and inboard rear discs. My cousin owns the same car as you basically, not the ant-eater.

Edit. Here's a sedan like mine:

Screenshot_2013-07-15-20-32-39.png

And here's a transaxle with inboard discs and Dedion suspension:

Screenshot_2013-07-15-20-43-09.png

[SloopJonB]

Inboard brakes look cool and theoretically improve a cars handling but in the real, everyday world they are one of the dumbest ideas ever to see production. I had them on my E-Type - I think that was the first instance of them on a production car. A brake job requires a hoist and the almost complete disassembly of the rear suspension. $$$$$$

The modern system of a fixed hub and a top hat rotor is the only way to go - pop off the caliper and you can do everything else without a tool.

[JoeP]

Inboard brakes look cool and theoretically improve a cars handling but in the real, everyday world they are one of the dumbest ideas ever to see production. I had them on my E-Type - I think that was the first instance of them on a production car. A brake job requires a hoist and the almost complete disassembly of the rear suspension. $$$$$$

The modern system of a fixed hub and a top hat rotor is the only way to go - pop off the caliper and you can do everything else without a tool.

No theory but proven fact, they reduce unsprung weight and improve handling but you are right that they are a bear to work on. I could change the pads under the car while on my back but had to reach over the top of the brake assembly to release and pull them. It took me about twice as long as changing the fronts. Luckily I never had to pull a rotor.

[BeauV]

I've often wondered why there were two disks on the half shafts of a E-type, Rover, Alfa with inboard brakes. Do you ever want to just brake one wheel. This is before ABS. We built a hot-rod that had one big disk brake on the drive shaft in front of the differential. Worked great - a lot less unsprung weight and it was easy to work on. You just lifted up the back seat and swapped the pads. Rotor swap was easy, four bolts and the drive shaft dropped down. I've never understood when the brakes need to be near the wheels and outboard.

Also, why go to all that trouble with the Dedion suspension and that great big chunk of metal going up and down. Why not mount each wheel to the frame to locate it and add a nice light sway bar? Again, a lot less weight but more linkages with expensive swivels and the geometry is a little more difficult.

But, I'm no car designer.

Fortunately, electric cars will probably eliminate most of the need for brake disks like this. The re-charge braking is getting so good that BMWs new car has tiny brakes and pretty much using the motor as a generator to stop the car.

BV

[JoeP]

I think, perhaps, for production it was easier to assemble the Dedion suspension and transaxle in one package off the car and then just bolt one big assembly into the car. Those Dedion suspensions were a sort of quasi independant rear suspension. My Alfetta was a great handling car but was not as good as the BMW 1600s and 2002s with fully independant suspensions.

[LarryHoward]

[quote="JoeP"]I think, perhaps, for production it was easier to assemble the Dedion suspension and transaxle in one package off the car and then just bolt one big assembly into the car. Those Dedion suspensions were a sort of quasi independant rear suspension. My Alfetta was a great handling car but was not as good as the BMW 1600s and 2002s with fully independant suspensions.[/quote

Oh yes. The 2002. My first sedan. Great sleeper car in the 70's.

[SloopJonB]

That car was the genesis of what BMW has become. It was quite an eye opener to come across it and the Lotus Cortina back in the midst of the muscle car wars.

[cap10ed]

I think, perhaps, for production it was easier to assemble the Dedion suspension and transaxle in one package off the car and then just bolt one big assembly into the car. Those Dedion suspensions were a sort of quasi independant rear suspension. My Alfetta was a great handling car but was not as good as the BMW 1600s and 2002s with fully independant suspensions.[/quote

Oh yes. The 2002. My first sedan. Great sleeper car in the 70's.

Larry prices on the 2002Tii are heading north.
( http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-2002 ... 98&vxp=mtr. )
I did some spirited back road adventures with friends and their rides. Sunday Church was the Sunoco Station and a high octane fill. Services started at 0700 and lasted an hour. Datsun 510, BMW 2002Tii, a VW Scirocco, and my GTV. The Scirocco didn’t fare too well on one occasion. More about bad driving than the car. The whole transaxle design was visually stunning but as we came to see a pain in the ass. My brother in law had a GTV 6 and having that high revving six spinning a driveshaft at 7500 rpm on the upshift right beside your kidneys was daunting. I never thought about it till after he sold the car. I hope the tranny tunnel was reinforced.

[BeauV]

That car was the genesis of what BMW has become. It was quite an eye opener to come across it and the Lotus Cortina back in the midst of the muscle car wars.

I love the Lotus Cortina. I bought one once that was putting out about 155hp and by the time I got done with it (Installed a Cosworth BDA engine) it was turning 9,000 RPM Plus and putting out well over 200 hp all the time. I pranged the car hard, salvaged the engine and ran it in the Morgan for a long time. Eventually, that darn motor broke the frame of the Morgan so now I only run about 160 hp in it.

The Lotus Cortina could out run any Porsche on the road in those days.

[JoeP]

Beau,

Did you ever have problems with starter motors falling off the engine of your Cortina? A guy I knew had it happen 3 times to his.

[BeauV]

Beau,

Did you ever have problems with starter motors falling off the engine of your Cortina? A guy I knew had it happen 3 times to his.

Funny you should mention that. The current motor in the Morgan, which has the same bottom end as all the 1500 and 1600 cc Lotus/Cortina/pinto/cosworthBDx engines, just had the damned starter fall out!!! I think these little engine vibrate so hard at high RPM they shake all sorts of stuff loose.

I have also had the generator fall off at least 5 times and the Webers used to fall of until I rubber mounted them

Whe these motors hit 7500-9000 RPM the just buzzzzzz like an angry dentist drill - I think they eject parts!!

[LarryHoward]

That car was the genesis of what BMW has become. It was quite an eye opener to come across it and the Lotus Cortina back in the midst of the muscle car wars.

Despite the somewhat shabby interiors, the late 60's German sports sedans and coupes (specifically the BMW 2002 and Porsche 911T) were well engineered, moderately priced cars that were pretty much owned by young professional enthusiasts and we had a great time screwing with the muscle cars of the day. Both brands went "Gucci" with interiors and creature comforts based, IMHO, on the significant and rapid change in the value of the USD in the late 70's/early 80's. A 911T that sold for around $6500 in 1976 suddenly became a $20,000 car and the buying demographic had to change. No more vinyl seats and optional AC. My son is trying to balance the $/unit fun now and I can tell you, some of the less expensive sporty cars out there today have capabilities in handling that we would have killed for "back in the day". He really doesn't realize how good his Civic Si is because pretty much every other car a young enthusiast would buy is just as good.

Interestingly, My dad put a tired 2002 in a barn with the intent of fixing it up someday. 3 years ago, when he passed and Mom went to sell the property, I tried to actually give it away (it was pretty sad but a complete car) and contacted the Dallas BMW club. No one wanted it, even for parts, and I eventually made getting rid of everything, including the collapsing barn a precondition to a guy that I gave an old, but restorable Farmall tractor to. I think the BMW eventually got hauled away to a scrap yard.

[SloopJonB]

Beau,

Did you ever have problems with starter motors falling off the engine of your Cortina? A guy I knew had it happen 3 times to his.

Funny you should mention that. The current motor in the Morgan, which has the same bottom end as all the 1500 and 1600 cc Lotus/Cortina/pinto/cosworthBDx engines, just had the damned starter fall out!!! I think these little engine vibrate so hard at high RPM they shake all sorts of stuff loose.

I have also had the generator fall off at least 5 times and the Webers used to fall of until I rubber mounted them

Whe these motors hit 7500-9000 RPM the just buzzzzzz like an angry dentist drill - I think they eject parts!!

They're old & British - what do you want? You have a choice - leaking oil or parts falling off (or both).

[bob perry]

I bought a new 1969 BMW 2002. It was a very good car. I had a Z-28 on order but cancelled it after test driving the BMW.

[kdh]

I love the 2002. It's the sort of car your cool dad could buy and then give it to you when you went to college. I wish.

My 2005 911 started leaking oil (main seal) so I ordered another one. It's on its way from Germany as I write.

Bob, look at the girl you could have gotten with that Z-28.

[BeauV]

Keith & Bob,

Here's what comes with a Morgan:



Clearly far better dressed for motoring in Holland... NOT!

BV