Time for a new toy-suggestions

[LarryHoward]

Yesterday, my son and I started looking for his next car. Current one looks like it gave it all protecting him and his friend.

Trying to stay in the range of what we should get from the insurance settlement so he has a budget OD around 12,500 to consider. Requirements are that it has to be "fun" to drive, have front and side air bags and be able to compete in autocrossing in stock trim. As a daily driver, it also needs moderate room for a 6' 2" lacrosse player who carries a 6' "D" pole. So Miata, S-2000, Mini and the like are out.

Yesterday he drove a Nissan 350 , a Subie STI, a Subie WRX and an RX-8. He'd be happy with another Civic Si but is considering options. The Nissan got a "OK" but not what I'm after" the STI was a hoot to drive but over the top on performance so I won't approve it. The WRX is not a bad option but hard to find within his budget. The RX-8 is minimal on room and has an iffy reliability history. I'm back where we were 3 years ago. You can find Eco boxes that are competent or very high performance versions that are too much for a kid in college (in dad's judgement). The Civic Si and the WRX are intermediate performance with good handling and willing power plants without being street legal race cars (like the STI).

What other cars should we consider?

He is a Mech E student with a passion for cars and plans to work in the performance car design/support industry. We visited the Audi dealership yesterday and I think they had to call in housekeeping with a mop after he finished drooling over the 2014 R-8.

[kimbottles]

Yeah, I drool over R-8's too!

[Orestes Munn]

I don't subscribe to the "toy" concept for parent-supplied vehicles. However, daughter, her dad having sold her 2001 Accord, has her heart set on a not-too-old Jetta TDI wagon...red...because she knows we are not going even to consider an A4. We'll see.

[Olaf Hart]

The turbo diesel Volkswagens are nice cars, but the engine setup is unnecessarily complex.
I have a 2007 Multivan (Eurovan) with the 5 cylinder turbo diesel, it has twice as many bits as my 2005 Isuzu truck turbodiesel, and is infinitely less reliable.
And that is before the electrics and electronics.
The only reason we still have it is the amazing interior, and it drives like a car.
We just bought a 2013 Honda CRV, and gave our old one to our son.
It is a 99, we bought it new and it has not missed a beat, amazingly reliable car.
The 2013 is not powerful, but very comfortable to drive, similar to an Audi Q5 at half the price.

[JoeP]

If they weren't so new I would recommend an FR-S/BRZ. Super handling, enough power to be entertaining, Toyota/Subaru reliability, and good milage (mine gets 32-36 mpg in commute driving). I don't think you'll find one in your price range until a few years from now though, but at $25,000 new they are a bargain.

if you are willing to go collectable and your son likes to wrench, you might consider an old 240Z or Datsun 2000 roadster. The 2000 holds its own in auto-x even today, but I don't know what mods it will take to get there. Grass Roots Motorsports magazine had an article on a very successful 2000 a few months back.

Then there's the Arial Atom... .. .

[Jamie]

The WRX is a great choice and if he is a mech E student, the upgrade pathway is well established: stage 1,2,3...stage 3 performance is better than an STi. (Maybe I shouldn't be saying that). Don't be afraid to buy used and do buy before the engine get switched over to the 2.0ltr DIT. That will be a much more fragile and harder to wrench/tune engine.

Any turbo Subaru model has a solid upgrade path....even Foresters.

Mitsubishi Evo might be a consideration too..

VW GTI/R32 might be an option, but I would never own it out of warrantee, the new cars have very expensive transmission issues.

[JoeP]

Forgot about the Evo and R32. Good reccomendations.

[LarryHoward]

Thanks for the recommendations.

Eric, I understand your position but I'm not against competent handling cars and he's following a path very similar to mine. I was an auto-crosser at 16 with an MGA that I restored. I can hardly hold it against him when he pulls pictures out of an album and asks me about those days. Any car that I will allow my kids to have will have second generation air bags, including side airbags. That means something late model and rules out "beaters" as starter cars. The 2001 Accord you mention would not meet my safety criteria. Gen 1 bags and no side bags. I considered a GTI or an EVO but maintenance/reliability out of warranty is a big concern on both of those and the Evo is a bit too high performance (about like an STI). He'd like an older sports car to tinker with but they are far, far below the safety standard I've imposed. He'd love a BRZ/FR-S but they are out of the budget.

Jamie - You are following my logic on the Subie. Buy a stock, mid performance WRX and he can upgrade later if he wants - on his dime and after college. I'm a little concerned about reliability after 100K miles or more as what we are seeing near his budget is going to be in the higher mileage range. Do you have an opinion on that?

Right now, he's pretty much narrowed down to another Civic Si or a WRX but is open to options. Naturally both are hard to find in good condition. He's ruled out 2 seaters from a practicality standpoint.

[Orestes Munn]

Larry, if that's something you feel is important to do for him, that's good. Lord knows I indulge my kid in all kinds of ways.

I believe side airbags were an option on the 2001 Accord and this one had them. This was also a threshold criterion for us. She inherited it for her mom and hated it until it was hers.

[Jamie]

Jamie - You are following my logic on the Subie. Buy a stock, mid performance WRX and he can upgrade later if he wants - on his dime and after college. I'm a little concerned about reliability after 100K miles or more as what we are seeing near his budget is going to be in the higher mileage range. Do you have an opinion on that?

I wouldn't buy an '08 or earlier model. Those are just beasts. The later models are much more refined. At 100k the engine is getting pretty tired from a performance perspective, but I know many Subies go well past 100k with no major failure. It really depends on the car history. Look for the usuals: crash damage, heavily or badly modified and put back to stock, low compression or poor leakdown, knackered stock suspension....etc... Look at oil consumption and the gearbox if it's been modified or ridden hard, though not sure if you can find any grandma's driving WRXs. Keep it cool and change the oil and they'll go a long way.

[LarryHoward]

Larry, if that's something you feel is important to do for him, that's good. Lord knows I indulge my kid in all kinds of ways.

I believe side airbags were an option on the 2001 Accord and this one had them. This was also a threshold criterion for us. She inherited it for her mom and hated it until it was hers.

Eric,

I'm being a bit cavalier calling it a "toy" but the do believe in helping him along the path he is seeking. He is seeing, and will continue to see some significant consequences for his lapse in judgement that lead to the accident but needs another car. I do think there is a big difference between a car as transportation and a car that enthusiasts appreciate and am fine with him driving a moderately powered car with a willing and agile suspension and design features that stretch his technical curiosity and drive him to seek out fundamental technical learning. Last week he was sending me sketches and looking for feedback on an energy recovery suspension design with the ideal that it would allow significantly extended range for an electric vehicle. He's digging into the 2014 rules for Formula 1 and trying to assess the systems engineering trade offs those changes will bring and how that will impact handling, balance, and overall performance. Feeding that curiosity and driving him to seek out answers is something I want to cultivate. Engineering is a pretty boring field of study if your mind cannot connect what your are learning to the real world.

Frankly, if an interest in competent cars keeps my son coming to me for discussion, advice and as a technical sounding board, I'm pretty OK with that.

[LarryHoward]

Jamie - You are following my logic on the Subie. Buy a stock, mid performance WRX and he can upgrade later if he wants - on his dime and after college. I'm a little concerned about reliability after 100K miles or more as what we are seeing near his budget is going to be in the higher mileage range. Do you have an opinion on that?

I wouldn't buy an '08 or earlier model. Those are just beasts. The later models are much more refined. At 100k the engine is getting pretty tired from a performance perspective, but I know many Subies go well past 100k with no major failure. It really depends on the car history. Look for the usuals: crash damage, heavily or badly modified and put back to stock, low compression or poor leakdown, knackered stock suspension....etc... Look at oil consumption and the gearbox if it's been modified or ridden hard, though not sure if you can find any grandma's driving WRXs. Keep it cool and change the oil and they'll go a long way.

Jamie,

You touch on the challenge on finding a used specialty car. They are somewhat limited production and many have been owner modified, some in less than quality ways. We spent 4 months finding the car he is replacing and ended up with an adult owned, garage kept, "only driven on nice weekends (30K miles in 4 years)" example that I had to drive to Pennsylvania to buy. I ran a couple of searches and to replace his car with the exact model and options, I find 2 within 500 miles of DC. One with a ton of miles and one with a "no haggle" price 2K above KBB retail. Like most enthusiast cars, they tend to stay with their original owners until they are due for replacement and hold their values far more than average sedans. He's also been searching on 06-07 Subies as his budget won't stretch to the 2011 WRX he drove Saturday so he's widening the search. Other than "Beast", what are your thoughts on pre 2009 WRX's.

I'm pretty hard core that he keep a car stock and any mods have to be carefully vetted and correctly installed. For example, I OK'd (but he had not yet accomplished) a sway bar upgrade and Koni Sports shocks on the Si and no more. Basically, he has to keep within the SCCA Solo rules for a stock class. No intake, no ECU reflash, no engine internals. He can do all that when he's more mature and paying all his own bills.

[Orestes Munn]

Larry, if that's something you feel is important to do for him, that's good. Lord knows I indulge my kid in all kinds of ways.

I believe side airbags were an option on the 2001 Accord and this one had them. This was also a threshold criterion for us. She inherited it for her mom and hated it until it was hers.

Eric,

I'm being a bit cavalier calling it a "toy" but the do believe in helping him along the path he is seeking. He is seeing, and will continue to see some significant consequences for his lapse in judgement that lead to the accident but needs another car. I do think there is a big difference between a car as transportation and a car that enthusiasts appreciate and am fine with him driving a moderately powered car with a willing and agile suspension and design features that stretch his technical curiosity and drive him to seek out fundamental technical learning. Last week he was sending me sketches and looking for feedback on an energy recovery suspension design with the ideal that it would allow significantly extended range for an electric vehicle. He's digging into the 2014 rules for Formula 1 and trying to assess the systems engineering trade offs those changes will bring and how that will impact handling, balance, and overall performance. Feeding that curiosity and driving him to seek out answers is something I want to cultivate. Engineering is a pretty boring field of study if your mind cannot connect what your are learning to the real world.

Frankly, if an interest in competent cars keeps my son coming to me for discussion, advice and as a technical sounding board, I'm pretty OK with that.

Larry, I was off base initially. This is somethings special between you and the kid, it will also probably help him take the real world physics more seriously.

[Jamie]

Jamie - You are following my logic on the Subie. Buy a stock, mid performance WRX and he can upgrade later if he wants - on his dime and after college. I'm a little concerned about reliability after 100K miles or more as what we are seeing near his budget is going to be in the higher mileage range. Do you have an opinion on that?

I wouldn't buy an '08 or earlier model. Those are just beasts. The later models are much more refined. At 100k the engine is getting pretty tired from a performance perspective, but I know many Subies go well past 100k with no major failure. It really depends on the car history. Look for the usuals: crash damage, heavily or badly modified and put back to stock, low compression or poor leakdown, knackered stock suspension....etc... Look at oil consumption and the gearbox if it's been modified or ridden hard, though not sure if you can find any grandma's driving WRXs. Keep it cool and change the oil and they'll go a long way.

Jamie,

You touch on the challenge on finding a used specialty car. They are somewhat limited production and many have been owner modified, some in less than quality ways. We spent 4 months finding the car he is replacing and ended up with an adult owned, garage kept, "only driven on nice weekends (30K miles in 4 years)" example that I had to drive to Pennsylvania to buy. I ran a couple of searches and to replace his car with the exact model and options, I find 2 within 500 miles of DC. One with a ton of miles and one with a "no haggle" price 2K above KBB retail. Like most enthusiast cars, they tend to stay with their original owners until they are due for replacement and hold their values far more than average sedans. He's also been searching on 06-07 Subies as his budget won't stretch to the 2011 WRX he drove Saturday so he's widening the search. Other than "Beast", what are your thoughts on pre 2009 WRX's.

I'm pretty hard core that he keep a car stock and any mods have to be carefully vetted and correctly installed. For example, I OK'd (but he had not yet accomplished) a sway bar upgrade and Koni Sports shocks on the Si and no more. Basically, he has to keep within the SCCA Solo rules for a stock class. No intake, no ECU reflash, no engine internals. He can do all that when he's more mature and paying all his own bills.

Bang for the buck, stiffer bars, endlinks and control arm bushings were one of the best mods I made to my car. Totally changed the car. People get in and say they didn't think a Japanese car could feel like that.

Interior is a lot better on the 2009 and later models. 2008s and earlier have the smaller TD04 turbo, as opposed to the 2009 which has the VF-54, similar to the current STi; there are a lot more easy gains there without swapping the turbo. Also 205/50-17 vs 225/45-17 tires, better springs but same crappy dampers. 2008 is probably the worst platform of all the WRXs as it is the first year they went civilized and they made the car soft and less accurate. 2007 is a completely different model and the last year with a suspension you could go rally with. It's also a much lighter car. It's the last hard-core model year in the left hand drive world. 2006 is something similar to 2007. I don't know anything about some of the earlier models.

This site is a good core dumps of a lot of info,
http://www.cars101.com/

These can be good resource but some signals analysis required.
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1825249
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2009/0 ... ubaru-wrx/

Maybe less helpful...
http://www.edmunds.com/subaru/impreza/2 ... views.html
http://www.edmunds.com/subaru/impreza/2 ... views.html

[BeauV]

Larry, both my kids developed a "topic" that they loved to work on with me. For my son (the one going into the Marines) is was military strategy and weapons systems, which is one of my life-long loves. For my daughter it was building machines that did stuff - primitive robots. Frankly, I never cared what it was so long as the two of us could share the projects. Hours were spent building things that really didn't accomplish much, but they were some of the best hours of my life and, I hope, of theirs. Both kids love to sail, but we'd spend hours sitting on the windward rail on a long beat out to the Farallons while OttO drove talking about our various "projects". I miss that a lot now that they're all grown up and adult and everything... B-/

[SloopJonB]

Find a stock car. I've been a "hot rod" (of all kinds) enthusiast since the early 60's and learned a few things about modified cars along the way. Back in the day pretty well any mods you made would improve a cars performance or looks - pretty hard to degrade the performance or handling of a 55 Chevy.

Now cars have become so highly developed and refined that any modifications you make have to be paid for with degraded performance in some other area. Change the suspension for more grip? Ride quality and tire life go out the window. Engine mods? Shortened engine life and/or reliability. Install a cage for safety? There goes the back seat.

And so on.

Rather than modifying a given car you're much better off to spend the money buying a higher performance car.

It's a shame because I really loved building hot engines and so forth but cars are so sophisticated now that it's virtually impossible to improve them - you can only re-purpose them, at great cost.

[BeauV]

You've just articulated why I spend all my hot-rod dollars and time on a '65 Morgan. Engine: bored and stroked, oversize webbers, dry sump, etc.... Suspension: (I know the suspension on a Morgan is actually a joke) new valve in the rear shocks, damper flaps on the front end etc... Body: toss the windshield, side curtains, heater, windshield wipers (don't need 'em if you don't have a windshield), etc....

At the end of the day, the Morgan is still slower than the chipped JCW Mini but it FEELS a hell of a lot faster with my old ass only 5" from the ground and the long hood. Of course no muffler and those big webbers slurping up air make it feel faster too.

Trying to hot rod a modern car is sort of like trying to "improve" the design of an AC-72, not for amateurs.

[Soñadora]

$10k + you might find a late model (air bag) 928 S4.


He will be able to carry his stick. It has a hatchback

[Cherie320]

Go back to the Honda SI - the dealer is reasonable for maintenance and the car is reliable. Alternatively, the lower performance civic might be an option. Lots of classes to race and competitive may not be the same as fast.

Wait and get the Subie as a graduation present.

If you find a better daily driver, that does not fit the autocross mold, a dedicated Dad - Son autocrosser might be appropriate.

[SloopJonB]

You've just articulated why I spend all my hot-rod dollars and time on a '65 Morgan. Engine: bored and stroked, oversize webbers, dry sump, etc.... Suspension: (I know the suspension on a Morgan is actually a joke) new valve in the rear shocks, damper flaps on the front end etc... Body: toss the windshield, side curtains, heater, windshield wipers (don't need 'em if you don't have a windshield), etc....

At the end of the day, the Morgan is still slower than the chipped JCW Mini but it FEELS a hell of a lot faster with my old ass only 5" from the ground and the long hood. Of course no muffler and those big webbers slurping up air make it feel faster too.

Trying to hot rod a modern car is sort of like trying to "improve" the design of an AC-72, not for amateurs.

A dry sumped Morgan. There must be a term for that - eccentric just seems inadequate. Idiosyncratic maybe? I'm surprised one can generate enough sustained lateral G's to need it. (or is it simply because it takes so long to get all the way through the corners? ) Your car sounds like a true hot rod, even if it did come from Malvern Link and not Detroit.

By the way, have you ever seen a +4+? We used to have a Morgan dealer in Vancouver and they had one of the ultra rare beasts in their window - for several years. You sure would have had to have been skinny and limber to get in one - it had the shortest doors of any car I've ever seen - made a TVR's look long.

[LarryHoward]

Go back to the Honda SI - the dealer is reasonable for maintenance and the car is reliable. Alternatively, the lower performance civic might be an option. Lots of classes to race and competitive may not be the same as fast.

Wait and get the Subie as a graduation present.

If you find a better daily driver, that does not fit the autocross mold, a dedicated Dad - Son autocrosser might be appropriate.

I'm leaning toward another Si. They are a bit hard to find in good condition and he doesn't get an upgrade to a new car for having an at fault crash. The current generation(s) of "normal" Civics are very anemic (but get great gas mileage). I threatened him with one as a "time out". The only issues with the Si are the lack of torque and narrow power band in the K20 engine and some vicious understeer (which is what bit him Thursday night) when the front steps out. A fat rear sway bar and improved shocks help the balance a lot without killing it as a DD. Other mods are as Jon suggests. You can get power for $ at the expense of longevity for the entire drive train (but a supercharger and forged internals make a hell of a 2.0 liter) . Going to a stage 2 or 3 suspension (lowering, coil overs, camber adjusters, etc) gives you a go cart but at the expense of driveability on the street. I did that (engine and suspension mods) with a '69 912 in my misspent youth and it was wicked fast but not very practical as a DD. As a teenager, some friends and I had an ex race Austin 1100 Mini that we shared the work cost and driving. We usually took 1,2,3 in local AXs.

Simple house rules. No mods allowed that move the car out of SCCA Solo stock classification. Don't even ask. That protects the daily driver, stops the arms race and controls the budget nicely.

We've talked about a dedicated AX car for the two of us but we don't currently have a garage and the long range house renovation plan (62 YO house) has a couple of college degrees and some other renovations ahead of the garage/apartment we have planned.

For graduation, we have tended (he's number 3) toward a modest nest egg that takes some of the sticker shock out of starting a life on your own. Between no student loans and some initial operating cash, we figure they can keep the good used cars we already provided for a few more years.

[SloopJonB]

$10k + you might find a late model (air bag) 928 S4.

I've always admired those cars and they have always been huge bargains on the used market because of the stigma of water and front engines amongst the purists. An architect neighbour of mine has had a big variety of Porsches over the years, including a 928. Back in the 90's I asked him about the cost of maintaining it because I had heard they were pricey, even for a Porsche. He said it cost him $5 or $6K a year back then to keep it running.

Very nice cars but bring $$$$ - sort of like buying an old boat I guess.

Back in the 70's when they came out, a friend was complaining about them - they were "ugly". I told him to just wait - at the turn of the century they would not look old like all the other cars that were then current. I remembered it all those years and in 2001 I reminded him of it - he agreed I had been right - they could still have been sold as a new car without looking dated.

[SloopJonB]

the garage/apartment we have planned.

Sounds like you're planning a "Tim Allen" bachelor pad - a 10,000 Sq Ft shop with a one bedroom apartment over.

[LarryHoward]

the garage/apartment we have planned.

Sounds like you're planning a "Tim Allen" bachelor pad - a 10,000 Sq Ft shop with a one bedroom apartment over.

Close. 1,600 sq ft garage with a 1,200 sq ft apartment over it. Given septic upgrades required, it s not an inexpensive proposition.

[LarryHoward]

the garage/apartment we have planned.

Sounds like you're planning a "Tim Allen" bachelor pad - a 10,000 Sq Ft shop with a one bedroom apartment over.

[Jamie]

The SI is a good choice. Un-modded and uncrashed early model WRXs can be a bit like unicorns, though if you find a clean one, it's been well taken care of to have made it this far.

I've got a turbo upgrade for my DD going in next week (a hybrid TD05 in a VF-54 case with a billet 18g wheel). The goal is 300+ whp with stock function and drivability. Tests so far show spool within 200rpm of stock, which is essentially within the error range of the data collection. I won't quote any power results yet, as we're still developing the tune, but so far the results are grand. The limitation is that the Legacy exhaust cam has 1mm less left than the STi, so we won't see the same power. There is also no shift kit for the 5EAT so we can't go too crazy either - the tranny is now the weakest link. Oil and tranny coolers are in and bigger anchors go in next week.

When I was a teenager, I rebuilt a 2002 - most fun you can have at 30 miles per hour. Much more fun than my father M5 which had to be driven at warp speed to get any idea of speed.

Actually, to get power out of older engines like the Morgan takes real understanding and skill. With modern cars it's actually easier and more about data collection: change some tables, re-flash the ROM, do a 3rd gear pull, log the data, interpret the data, change some parameters and repeat ad nauseum until you finally get it right.

We joke than anyone with a laptop and an OBD2 module can be a t00ner.

[SloopJonB]

the garage/apartment we have planned.

Sounds like you're planning a "Tim Allen" bachelor pad - a 10,000 Sq Ft shop with a one bedroom apartment over.

Tell me about it - we just had the field replaced at our house in the Okanagan - Cost twice as much as our latest boat.

[BeauV]

You've just articulated why I spend all my hot-rod dollars and time on a '65 Morgan. Engine: bored and stroked, oversize webbers, dry sump, etc.... Suspension: (I know the suspension on a Morgan is actually a joke) new valve in the rear shocks, damper flaps on the front end etc... Body: toss the windshield, side curtains, heater, windshield wipers (don't need 'em if you don't have a windshield), etc....

At the end of the day, the Morgan is still slower than the chipped JCW Mini but it FEELS a hell of a lot faster with my old ass only 5" from the ground and the long hood. Of course no muffler and those big webbers slurping up air make it feel faster too.

Trying to hot rod a modern car is sort of like trying to "improve" the design of an AC-72, not for amateurs.

A dry sumped Morgan. There must be a term for that - eccentric just seems inadequate. Idiosyncratic maybe? I'm surprised one can generate enough sustained lateral G's to need it. (or is it simply because it takes so long to get all the way through the corners? ) Your car sounds like a true hot rod, even if it did come from Malvern Link and not Detroit.

By the way, have you ever seen a +4+? We used to have a Morgan dealer in Vancouver and they had one of the ultra rare beasts in their window - for several years. You sure would have had to have been skinny and limber to get in one - it had the shortest doors of any car I've ever seen - made a TVR's look long.

The +4+ was one of the first of various "weird" Morgans that the family tried, attempting to be more modern. But, like the 911, the customers revolted and demanded the older looking car. I've actually driven a +4+ that was set up for top speed runs! because I only weighed 135 lbs in those days. It was terrifying going 128 mph in that thing!!

The dry sump is because the oil pressure hit zero on about 1/2 the turns at Laguna Seca when running on race tires. It also let me lower the engine 4", although I've never been convinced that mattered. It didn't change my lap times. There is also a rear axel oil cooler and scavenging system that sucks diff oil for the outboard ends of the axel tubes and dumps it into the top of the diff after running it through a cooler. This was installed after I burned out the third set of port side rear axel bearings on the old Laguna Seca course where the oil spend the entire time from turn 1 up the hill to the corkscrew pushed to starboard.

Puttering around Laguna Seca in the Morgan is about three times as much fun as the 996 Turbo cab. Although the AC was comfy in the Porch.

[JoeP]

More fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow the saying goes. One of my sisters had a first generation Fiesta which was a hoot to drive as fast as you could. Just wind up that little 1300cc(?) rubber band and have at it.

[BeauV]

More fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow the saying goes. One of my sisters had a first generation Fiesta which was a hoot to drive as fast as you could. Just wind up that little 1300cc(?) rubber band and have at it.

Yup! An Italian friend used to race the little Abarth 850cc toy cars. He let me drive it a number of times, it was a complete hoot. If I remember correctly, you didn't shift until the valves floated. Good times. BV