My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

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My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Rob McAlpine » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:53 pm

We lost a really great scientist and edumacator - Dr. Stirling Colgate, yes, of the toothpaste family, but he was soooooo much more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_Colgate

I met him my first weekend when I went to college, couldn't believe I was talking to the school president - while he resigned about a year later, we remained friends, he was one of the most intellectually curious humans I've ever met.

It was through Stirling that I met my great friend and mentor Ross Lomanitz. I served on the Academic Standards committee with Ross, we would go out for beers together after meetings. A truly towering intellect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Rossi_Lomanitz

Ross taught me that socialists and capitalists want much the same things - good schools, health care, safe neighborhoods, nice families. There are legitimate differences of opinion as to how we achieve these goals, but that should never be enough to make us personally dislike someone who merely disagrees with us. A lesson in short supply these days, I think.

Ross was blacklisted by the House Un-american Activities Committee and was working as a roofer in Wyoming when Stir brought him to New Mexico Tech to teach physics.

The other determined contender for my (now) wife's hand in college was Stirling's son, also a very bright guy and, obviously, from a higher status family than I, I am still a little amazed that I prevailed, but am eternally grateful that Beth was willing to lower her standards for me.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:14 am

Sorry, Rob. They both sound like great guys.

I'm not a neutral observer, but I think senior academics are a critically important national repository of wisdom, which we are drawing down to dangerous levels and replacing with bullshit. I think nearly the whole political spectrum can agree that repleting it would be a good use of tax dollars.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Jamie » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:44 am

It's sad. Too many people see that as a waste of money. But, that might be getting a little too political ;)
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:45 pm

So.... I'm a numbers guy. As a result, I like to measure stuff. In California numerous studies have proven, beyond any doubt at all, that for every dollar the State of California spends on the University of California System it has received an Internal Rate of Return of over 16% on that investment in increased payment of State income taxes. There is absolutely no alternative which the State of California could invest in that will yield 16% IRR - full stop. When you then add to this overly simplistic measure that a better educated population leads to significant other advantages, such as much higher State tax revenues on companies that locate in the state etc... high-end education becomes one of the all time best investments ever.

Currently, the City of San Francisco has a growth rate in employment that is well over twice what the rest of the US is. This is a city with very high taxes, a shortage of housing, and numerous other problems. It is also probably one of the most liberal cities in the US if not the world. It is the center for Bio-Tech and much of the recent wave of Software Tech, and is funding the restoration of its urban blight off of massive growth in these sectors. Much of these advantages are the direct result of UCSF (medical), UC Berkeley (software and computers), and Stanford (all of the above) being nearby. There is a reason that for decades California's economy has out grown the rest of the US, it has captured about 60% of all venture capital dollars invested each year for the last 20+ years, and shows no signed of slipping from its perch, despite taxes that are really quite high. As many have said, there is not an inverse correlations between tax rates and success there is a positive correlation if you look at the data. Note, that's a correlation, not causality, which almost all low-tax advocates miss. The high tax rate is because the state can get away with it, not because it improves economic performance.

I strongly believe that the reasons for California's success over many many decades is partially because five of the top ten rated universities in the US are here. Full stop.

I don't think any of this is political - I think it is just trying to understand the numbers and discover what is really causative and what is simply a correlation.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:39 pm

BeauV wrote:I think it is just trying to understand the numbers and discover what is really causative and what is simply a correlation.

Estimates exist for the ROI for the NIH, for example, and they look pretty good. That's not a correlation. Either way, the pursuit of basic knowledge is one of the most benign and, ultimately, productive things humans can do and I believe most conservative economists and even thinking libertarians see a leading role for government in promoting it.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Rob McAlpine » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:23 pm

Someone once told me that education is how the soul of a free society gets passed from generation to generation. I'm sure he heard it somewhere else, but it struck me as true.

It's pretty obvious that research and education are the drivers of the SF economy, just as Harvard, MIT, Tufts, BU, BC, Amherst drive the Massachusetts economy, and UT drives Austin's tech growth. These all seem to be pretty good investments. I just don't see how we can afford NOT to fund science research and education.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:36 pm

Rob McAlpine wrote:Someone once told me that education is how the soul of a free society gets passed from generation to generation. I'm sure he heard it somewhere else, but it struck me as true.

It's pretty obvious that research and education are the drivers of the SF economy, just as Harvard, MIT, Tufts, BU, BC, Amherst drive the Massachusetts economy, and UT drives Austin's tech growth. These all seem to be pretty good investments. I just don't see how we can afford NOT to fund science research and education.

They're expensive and science, at least, looks terribly inefficient and wasteful from close up.

Wellesley, Williams, Smith, Holyoke, and Hampshire alumna(e) might be nonplussed to see Amherst in that group.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:16 pm

Rob McAlpine wrote:Someone once told me that education is how the soul of a free society gets passed from generation to generation. I'm sure he heard it somewhere else, but it struck me as true.

It's pretty obvious that research and education are the drivers of the SF economy, just as Harvard, MIT, Tufts, BU, BC, Amherst drive the Massachusetts economy, and UT drives Austin's tech growth. These all seem to be pretty good investments. I just don't see how we can afford NOT to fund science research and education.


Z'acktly right - and not just university type education. Currently the biggest concern in that area in Canada is the lack of skills available to employers. For my whole life university has been regarded as the only really acceptable course for young people - everything else has been generally regarded as being only for those who couldn't cut it in academia.

The result is we now have PhD's driving cabs and skilled floor layers making 6 figure incomes.

In MY next life I'm coming back as a high level machinist I think. :D I'll turn out things like Kim's rudder and keel.

On a slightly different note, there has always seemed to be a very widely held mistrust & suspicion of academics & intellectuals in the States. That certainly doesn't help in relation to this topic.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby cap10ed » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:58 pm

Nelson Mandela. Another great teacher and historic figure passes on. :(

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nelson-man ... -1.2417872
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kimbottles » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:37 pm

SloopJonB wrote:
Rob McAlpine wrote:Someone once told me that education is how the soul of a free society gets passed from generation to generation. I'm sure he heard it somewhere else, but it struck me as true.

It's pretty obvious that research and education are the drivers of the SF economy, just as Harvard, MIT, Tufts, BU, BC, Amherst drive the Massachusetts economy, and UT drives Austin's tech growth. These all seem to be pretty good investments. I just don't see how we can afford NOT to fund science research and education.


Z'acktly right - and not just university type education. Currently the biggest concern in that area in Canada is the lack of skills available to employers. For my whole life university has been regarded as the only really acceptable course for young people - everything else has been generally regarded as being only for those who couldn't cut it in academia.

The result is we now have PhD's driving cabs and skilled floor layers making 6 figure incomes.

In MY next life I'm coming back as a high level machinist I think. :D I'll turn out things like Kim's rudder and keel.

On a slightly different note, there has always seemed to be a very widely held mistrust & suspicion of academics & intellectuals in the States. That certainly doesn't help in relation to this topic.


The keel maybe but the rudder plus stock is all carbon fibre!
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kimbottles » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:38 pm

cap10ed wrote:Nelson Mandela. Another great teacher and historic figure passes on. :(

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nelson-man ... -1.2417872


One of the Giants of mankind.......
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Brooke » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:46 pm

I hadn't heard of Dr Colgate before, what an interesting life he had. Bet he could have told some great stories if he was allowed to!!

One of my doctoral committee members passed away unexpectedly last year. He left an immense hole in the scientific community that he worked in (coastal ecology), one that won't be filled for a very long time, if ever. It's amazing to be around someone like that, who makes you think way outside the box and always question what you are observing.

The days of getting a job, even outside your field, because you have a masters or a phd and consequently you are obviously smart and focused and can figure things out is long gone. I crashed into that wall four years ago - ended up working in retail for three years (at least it was at a kayak shop, so I got paid to go paddling!), and finally had to move 1500 miles away to get any kind of job relating to science. I am finally employed, but in a job that doesn't require a phd. It works for me, but the pay is low and you miss out on a lot if years of earning potential by going to grad school. I enjoy learning for learning's sake, but my cousin's son who is going to a trade school for welding will probably find a job faster and make more money.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby LarryHoward » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Brooke wrote:I hadn't heard of Dr Colgate before, what an interesting life he had. Bet he could have told some great stories if he was allowed to!!

One of my doctoral committee members passed away unexpectedly last year. He left an immense hole in the scientific community that he worked in (coastal ecology), one that won't be filled for a very long time, if ever. It's amazing to be around someone like that, who makes you think way outside the box and always question what you are observing.

The days of getting a job, even outside your field, because you have a masters or a phd and consequently you are obviously smart and focused and can figure things out is long gone. I crashed into that wall four years ago - ended up working in retail for three years (at least it was at a kayak shop, so I got paid to go paddling!), and finally had to move 1500 miles away to get any kind of job relating to science. I am finally employed, but in a job that doesn't require a phd. It works for me, but the pay is low and you miss out on a lot if years of earning potential by going to grad school. I enjoy learning for learning's sake, but my cousin's son who is going to a trade school for welding will probably find a job faster and make more money.


Brooke,

I like to think scientists generally trade top earning potential for a curious mind and the opportunity to be a part of the discovery process. My middle child graduates in two weeks with a biology degree and experience as an intern in a marine biology lab, a vet assistant, a paleo intern (part of a team that recovered an ancient whale skeleton last summer) and a current research assistant and TA in biology of ancient animals. She is planning on a graduate program in marine biology but is pretty concerned about job opportunities in the field. We will be in Tampa for my eldest daughters wedding the end of Feb/first of march and I'd love to get my biologist together with you.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Rob McAlpine » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:15 pm

Brooke wrote:I hadn't heard of Dr Colgate before, what an interesting life he had. Bet he could have told some great stories if he was allowed to!!

One of my doctoral committee members passed away unexpectedly last year. He left an immense hole in the scientific community that he worked in (coastal ecology), one that won't be filled for a very long time, if ever. It's amazing to be around someone like that, who makes you think way outside the box and always question what you are observing.

The days of getting a job, even outside your field, because you have a masters or a phd and consequently you are obviously smart and focused and can figure things out is long gone. I crashed into that wall four years ago - ended up working in retail for three years (at least it was at a kayak shop, so I got paid to go paddling!), and finally had to move 1500 miles away to get any kind of job relating to science. I am finally employed, but in a job that doesn't require a phd. It works for me, but the pay is low and you miss out on a lot if years of earning potential by going to grad school. I enjoy learning for learning's sake, but my cousin's son who is going to a trade school for welding will probably find a job faster and make more money.


The more things change the more they stay the same. I had this discussion over 35 years ago with the above mentioned Dr. Lomanitz. It was the Carter years, the economy was in the dumps, I had fallen in love and wanted to be able to support a family. Oil was hot, and New Mexico Tech offered a Petroleum Engineering degree, I already had far more than the required math, physics, chem. Ross told me that, knowing me, I'd find a way to have fun in the oil field, and he knew my girl, knew we'd be happy together wherever we were. He said switching majors made pretty good sense for me, especially since I wasn't as smart as that suckup Hawking.

I'd always thought that being a scientist was noble, but as it turns out, drilling oil wells is pretty damn good fun. I get to play with big ass erector sets and hunt for buried treasure. There were lean years, $8/bbl oil, for sure, but I have no regrets.

Hopefully this is temporary. You had the sucky luck to graduate in a shitty, shitty economy, but also your degree is not really a super "commercial" one anyways. You were really pursuing passion, not profit. Hopefully your recent opportunity will put you on a great path.

When I think back to being taught by Colgate and Lomanitz, plus Lin Orr, later dean of earth sciences at Stanford, I realize how absurdly lucky I was, I was at a podunk little state school in the middle of nowhere, and undoubtedly got a better education than my two brothers who went to Brown.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:36 pm

Rob, despite the obvious, indeed PAINFULLY obvious, benefits of investing in public education; all sorts of "great" men have decided it didn't make sense. The one I found the most painful is Ronald Reagan. As the governor of Calif. he basically tore apart the UC and St.Uni system. He even had the balls to say that higher education was best left to those how had parents who could afford it - or words to that effect. (He also closed all our mental health hospitals, but I can't start talking about that or I'll go crazy and there's no where left to lock me up!)

I really do have tremendous difficulty reconciling the obvious benefits with the pathological aversion to investing in education by some of the folks who would benefit from it most. I'm going to sound like a rich asshole here, but I paid for my two kids to go through Stanford and Yale. They both earned scholarships which I made them turn-down. I have enough money to pay for their education and the scholarships should go to kids who don't have parents with quite a deep enough checkbook. But, for middle-class folks who certainly can't "afford" Yale, Harvard or Stanford to be harping on the "waste" of public higher education is astounding to me. How can capitalism work if people won't argue for their own self-interest??? As a full-cry capitalist, I am DEEPLY offended. Also, I'm confused. We see this in our culture constantly. For some reason a reasonably good sized segment of our society supports the fantasy that we rich guys have foisted on them. They're frigging libertarians who don't understand that they are the hunted not the hunter! I so wish this wasn't so, but every time I see some middle class person railing against the "safety net" and against "single payer health care system of socialize medicine" I have to shake my head and mumble to myself: "How can we have a democracy that works and capitalism that works, if the citizens are too stupid to know their own best interest?" As the King in the King & I would say: "It is a puzzlement!"
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kimbottles » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:03 am

BeauV wrote:Rob, despite the obvious, indeed PAINFULLY obvious, benefits of investing in public education; all sorts of "great" men have decided it didn't make sense. The one I found the most painful is Ronald Reagan. As the governor of Calif. he basically tore apart the UC and St.Uni system. He even had the balls to say that higher education was best left to those how had parents who could afford it - or words to that effect. (He also closed all our mental health hospitals, but I can't start talking about that or I'll go crazy and there's no where left to lock me up!)

I really do have tremendous difficulty reconciling the obvious benefits with the pathological aversion to investing in education by some of the folks who would benefit from it most. I'm going to sound like a rich asshole here, but I paid for my two kids to go through Stanford and Yale. They both earned scholarships which I made them turn-down. I have enough money to pay for their education and the scholarships should go to kids who don't have parents with quite a deep enough checkbook. But, for middle-class folks who certainly can't "afford" Yale, Harvard or Stanford to be harping on the "waste" of public higher education is astounding to me. How can capitalism work if people won't argue for their own self-interest??? As a full-cry capitalist, I am DEEPLY offended. Also, I'm confused. We see this in our culture constantly. For some reason a reasonably good sized segment of our society supports the fantasy that we rich guys have foisted on them. They're frigging libertarians who don't understand that they are the hunted not the hunter! I so wish this wasn't so, but every time I see some middle class person railing against the "safety net" and against "single payer health care system of socialize medicine" I have to shake my head and mumble to myself: "How can we have a democracy that works and capitalism that works, if the citizens are too stupid to know their own best interest?" As the King in the King & I would say: "It is a puzzlement!"


Yeah! All of what he said. I never understand why so many of my employees vote against their own self interests!
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby LarryHoward » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:35 am

BeauV wrote:Rob, despite the obvious, indeed PAINFULLY obvious, benefits of investing in public education; all sorts of "great" men have decided it didn't make sense. The one I found the most painful is Ronald Reagan. As the governor of Calif. he basically tore apart the UC and St.Uni system. He even had the balls to say that higher education was best left to those how had parents who could afford it - or words to that effect. (He also closed all our mental health hospitals, but I can't start talking about that or I'll go crazy and there's no where left to lock me up!)

I really do have tremendous difficulty reconciling the obvious benefits with the pathological aversion to investing in education by some of the folks who would benefit from it most. I'm going to sound like a rich asshole here, but I paid for my two kids to go through Stanford and Yale. They both earned scholarships which I made them turn-down. I have enough money to pay for their education and the scholarships should go to kids who don't have parents with quite a deep enough checkbook. But, for middle-class folks who certainly can't "afford" Yale, Harvard or Stanford to be harping on the "waste" of public higher education is astounding to me. How can capitalism work if people won't argue for their own self-interest??? As a full-cry capitalist, I am DEEPLY offended. Also, I'm confused. We see this in our culture constantly. For some reason a reasonably good sized segment of our society supports the fantasy that we rich guys have foisted on them. They're frigging libertarians who don't understand that they are the hunted not the hunter! I so wish this wasn't so, but every time I see some middle class person railing against the "safety net" and against "single payer health care system of socialize medicine" I have to shake my head and mumble to myself: "How can we have a democracy that works and capitalism that works, if the citizens are too stupid to know their own best interest?" As the King in the King & I would say: "It is a puzzlement!"



Beau,

I read yesterday that 50% of American households have less than $800 in savings. Telling them that they need to support raising taxes to pay for higher education while they hear of University Presidents with multi-million dollar salaries, see college costs rising far out of proportion to inflation and find that financial aid today is spelled Student Loans is a tough sell. My state rep is chair of the Education Committee and an good friend so I hear the tale of woe on funding pretty regularly but the truth is that our state government established a lot of expensive programs in the good years and is scraping to fund them in the economic doldrums. We have taxed industry to the point that folks are moving businesses out of the state and we are recognized as one of the worst in the nation for business and that is moving us toward negative business growth. To fund Bay cleanup efforts, we established a "rain tax" that assesses a new tax based on impervious surfaces on your property. Our state university system is very good but expensive. No in state admissions preference is given (but there is in-state tuition) so a lot of taxpayers find their kids have to to private schools or go out of state. Hard to convince them the state university system is helping them at a personal level. Unhappy parents feel that our universities actually recruit and select out of state students because they pay a higher price and their contribution to margin is much higher than the children of the taxpayers. Those folks have trouble supporting another tax increase to fund a university system that doesn't seem to be for "them".

I guess I'm saying that you appear to want to drain the swamp when a lot of taxpayers feel they are fighting alligators.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:11 am

Good points, Larry. However, if we can sell OIF and the NSA, state universities shouldn't be an impossible reach. In case no one remembers, the NIH (30 billion a year) was trotted out for effect by both sides during the recent shutdown. Of course, everyone is terrified of cancer, but people are interested in bugs and galaxies, too.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby LarryHoward » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:47 am

Orestes Munn wrote:Good points, Larry. However, if we can sell OIF and the NSA, state universities shouldn't be an impossible reach. In case no one remembers, the NIH (30 billion a year) was trotted out for effect by both sides during the recent shutdown. Of course, everyone is terrified of cancer, but people are interested in bugs and galaxies, too.


Don't disagree in the least. My father was the first in his family of 9 children to attend college and he did it as a married man via night school on the WW-II GI Bill. I'm the first in the lineage to attend graduate school and my sister and I are the only ones in the extended family where all of our children are/will be college graduates. I don't have to be sold on the value of higher education but I also see things happening that I don't care for, including tenured professors who never show up for class so the English as a second or third language TA is teaching the course. I also see incredibly dedicated and inspirational professors that send my kids home full of energy, insight and intellectual curiosity. Perhaps if our governor really wanted to, he could unfund "Plan Maryland" and increase funding for the University of Md system with no net increase in revenue required.

As I have discussed with my daughter Jess (not our Scantlings Jess), her choice of career field is based on a passion for discovery and knowledge. She's not likely to be highly paid but will be compensated in many significant ways and, like your daughter and Brooke, may discover something that fundamentally changes our understanding of the universe. A passion for understanding Why and How is a great thing we need to nurture but they may eat a lot of ramen noodles to get there.

Because we fall into the "Too rich to use an education deduction or qualify for anything but co signed loans", it costs us $100K annually in pretax earnings to fund 2 in undergraduate school. We planned for it and live within our means but won't pretend it's nothing. Providing that kick start is our gift to them so that they can start their adult lives without the burden of student loans.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Brooke » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:05 am

I would much rather be doing something I enjoy than be paid better. But it's a little scary to think of the situation I would be in now if I didn't have financial support from my parents. And I can't even fathom what it would be like if I had college loans. I certainly wouldn't have a boat, or be able to travel or do basically anything other than survive. I'll be 37 in a couple of weeks and 2014 will be the first year that I will make more than 30k (and not much more!). Granted I did graduate into a terrible economy, and for some reason I did seem to get an even shorter stick than most if my friends in grad school, but it is not fun to think that without my folks I'd be in a pretty tight spot. Fortunately, this situation works for us - I have no siblings, we get along great (we better since we're all living together this winter!) and we are all very conscious of living within our means.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kdh » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:10 am

Orestes Munn wrote:Good points, Larry. However, if we can sell OIF and the NSA, state universities shouldn't be an impossible reach. In case no one remembers, the NIH (30 billion a year) was trotted out for effect by both sides during the recent shutdown. Of course, everyone is terrified of cancer, but people are interested in bugs and galaxies, too.


Eric, I'm curious. To my thinking public funding of the development of new antibiotics given the resistance problems we have is a compelling idea. Drug companies given their profit motive are naturally more interested in drugs that manage chronic diseases rather than drugs that cure--they get recurring revenue from those drugs rather than one-time.

Is this happening in your sphere or do you know anything about it?
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:42 am

Larry, I completely understand that a lot of folks are hurting, especially the last few years, and rightfully pissed off about poorly run universities, as they should be. The first of those provides a reasonable justification for defunding, the second does not. When something is poorly run the person responsible for supervision needs to fix it. Sadly, most boards of regents are only titular heads and were often selected for their ability to donate to the Govenor's campaign and not their ability to actually serve as a regent or trustee. This come down hard on the UC regents during the Vietnam Nam war when things got ugly and they had to address it. Sadly, the problem continues. But, the solution isn't to defund due to poor performance, it's to fix the problem. Imagine if we defended the US military because we didn't like the failure that resulted in the Beruit bombing of the Marine Corp base or the current corruption with the Navy repaire contract? Fortunately, folks seem to understand that defunding the military isn't the right answer, better management and execution is.

As to the hard economic times and the increases in tuition that have outstripped inflation, both important factors in this discussion, during a down turn the management of a university needs to have the ability to cut. But, like many businesses, they have various organizations who don't want their ox gored. Tenure for professors is only one manifestation of the difficulty all managements have in dealing with all sorts of unions. The idiocy of gigantic and unrealistic pension obligations is really at the root of a lot of this. I recently learned that the 401k for each person was guaranteed an 8% rate of return - period. If the money managers couldn't matcha that, the state would make up the difference!! The idea of giving anyone a guaranteed 8% compounded return indefinitely is so idiotic it leaves me speechless, and as you all know that take a lot. Sadly, at the root of a great deal of the lack of money for public universities is the attitude of their alumni that they don't need to give back, the state will pay. Only recently did some of us get through to my alma mater that there were billionaires who would fund an endowment. It hadn't occurred to the to ask. We raised a lot, for a commuter state college, of money and the idiot Regents wanted to spend the principle I the current year, speaking of bad management! We're only starting to get that sorted out.

Despite all the problems, we here in CA should be funding education and not building high-speed rail systems and all sorts of other non-sense, again poor mgmt but no reason to turn away from the best investment we can make.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:46 am

kdh wrote:
Orestes Munn wrote:Good points, Larry. However, if we can sell OIF and the NSA, state universities shouldn't be an impossible reach. In case no one remembers, the NIH (30 billion a year) was trotted out for effect by both sides during the recent shutdown. Of course, everyone is terrified of cancer, but people are interested in bugs and galaxies, too.


Eric, I'm curious. To my thinking public funding of the development of new antibiotics given the resistance problems we have is a compelling idea. Drug companies given their profit motive are naturally more interested in drugs that manage chronic diseases rather than drugs that cure--they get recurring revenue from those drugs rather than one-time.

Is this happening in your sphere or do you know anything about it?

Well, as we both know, the first thing to do about antimicrobial resistance is to stop abusing the ones we have in clinics and industrial farms. I think the government might have a thing or two to say about that, but too many people are making money off the status quo.

it's not my area of science and I'm more of a device than a drug guy, but I would think Pharma would be quite interested in new antibiotics, since the old ones are almost all off patent. This is also an area where reliable preclinical models were established many decades ago and human efficacy is dead easy to prove, compared to, say, depression treatment, where effect sizes, even in huge trials, tend to be borderline. Even so, you don't read about many advances on what seems like a highly tractable problem. Might be what you say, I don't know. I recently heard the figure that it costs about a billion dollars, all told, to bring a new drug to market. That's enough to discourage anyone.

We have a whole "vaccine" building here on campus, but not an antibiotic one.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:47 am

Keith,

We tried HARD to get a biz model that would work developing antibiotics, but just can't get the model to work. We couldn't find a way to even get through trials, let alone marketing, and the failure rate was really high. I'm hoping that the improving understanding of the genetics, and our ability to alter them in a way that will kill bugs like the ones that are munching on Kim's leg, might get a higher success rate. But the trials and approval process, as you know, is so bad that we wouldn't allow aspirin to be approved under the current system.

BV
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:03 am

BeauV wrote:Keith,

We tried HARD to get a biz model that would work developing antibiotics, but just can't get the model to work. We couldn't find a way to even get through trials, let alone marketing, and the failure rate was really high. I'm hoping that the improving understanding of the genetics, and our ability to alter them in a way that will kill bugs like the ones that are munching on Kim's leg, might get a higher success rate. But the trials and approval process, as you know, is so bad that we wouldn't allow aspirin to be approved under the current system.

BV

Keith's point, however, is relevant. The business models for dangerous, me-too, anti-inflammatories and monoclonal antibodies for autoimmune disorders, psych drugs of marginal effectiveness, and hard-on agents are apparently fine and dandy. If you think antibiotics are hard, I spent a couple of years in the murky underworld of counterterrorism, trying to get companies to develop countermeasures for chemical weapons. There are just areas where the market is not going to provide stuff we need.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:27 am

Brooke wrote:I would much rather be doing something I enjoy than be paid better. But it's a little scary to think of the situation I would be in now if I didn't have financial support from my parents. And I can't even fathom what it would be like if I had college loans. I certainly wouldn't have a boat, or be able to travel or do basically anything other than survive. I'll be 37 in a couple of weeks and 2014 will be the first year that I will make more than 30k (and not much more!). Granted I did graduate into a terrible economy, and for some reason I did seem to get an even shorter stick than most if my friends in grad school, but it is not fun to think that without my folks I'd be in a pretty tight spot. Fortunately, this situation works for us - I have no siblings, we get along great (we better since we're all living together this winter!) and we are all very conscious of living within our means.

Brooke, It's a pretty scary world. Aside from a daughter who's headed for grad school in marine science :shock: , I am supporting two hotshot PhD postdocs with loads of high-profile pubs who can't find jobs and a talented post-bac fellow who is applying to grad programs in cognitive science, despite seeing the postdocs panicking. All I can do is tell them to bail when it stops being fun.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Rob McAlpine » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:37 am

kimbottles wrote:
BeauV wrote:Rob, despite the obvious, indeed PAINFULLY obvious, benefits of investing in public education; all sorts of "great" men have decided it didn't make sense. The one I found the most painful is Ronald Reagan. As the governor of Calif. he basically tore apart the UC and St.Uni system. He even had the balls to say that higher education was best left to those how had parents who could afford it - or words to that effect. (He also closed all our mental health hospitals, but I can't start talking about that or I'll go crazy and there's no where left to lock me up!)

I really do have tremendous difficulty reconciling the obvious benefits with the pathological aversion to investing in education by some of the folks who would benefit from it most. I'm going to sound like a rich asshole here, but I paid for my two kids to go through Stanford and Yale. They both earned scholarships which I made them turn-down. I have enough money to pay for their education and the scholarships should go to kids who don't have parents with quite a deep enough checkbook. But, for middle-class folks who certainly can't "afford" Yale, Harvard or Stanford to be harping on the "waste" of public higher education is astounding to me. How can capitalism work if people won't argue for their own self-interest??? As a full-cry capitalist, I am DEEPLY offended. Also, I'm confused. We see this in our culture constantly. For some reason a reasonably good sized segment of our society supports the fantasy that we rich guys have foisted on them. They're frigging libertarians who don't understand that they are the hunted not the hunter! I so wish this wasn't so, but every time I see some middle class person railing against the "safety net" and against "single payer health care system of socialize medicine" I have to shake my head and mumble to myself: "How can we have a democracy that works and capitalism that works, if the citizens are too stupid to know their own best interest?" As the King in the King & I would say: "It is a puzzlement!"


Yeah! All of what he said. I never understand why so many of my employees vote against their own self interests!


Theory and practice are sometimes a little different. Even as a capitalist, I am in favor of a strong safety net, and advocate a system of free government clinics, open to all, for health care.

In practice, I have little faith in the ability of Leviathan government to deliver many services with competence and efficiency. My experience with the breathtaking incompetence and arrogance of the US Dept of Interior has, I'm afraid, irrevocably colored my views. Or maybe it's just a Texas thang. 8-)

I agree completely that the children of the wealthy should forgo scholarships, my son is presently in a state program that does not accept tuition, I'm pleased to have been able to make it up through donations.

Eric, did you ever discuss antibiotic development with Rick on the way to Bermuda? He spent his entire career at Pfizer and knows the workings of big Pharma quite well, I seem to recall him telling me that they had quite a few things in the pipeline, but they would be very, very different from what we are using now. The owner/skipper of Lyra is also a pharma guy.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:52 am

Rob McAlpine wrote:Theory and practice are sometimes a little different. Even as a capitalist, I am in favor of a strong safety net, and advocate a system of free government clinics, open to all, for health care.

In practice, I have little faith in the ability of Leviathan government to deliver many services with competence and efficiency. My experience with the breathtaking incompetence and arrogance of the US Dept of Interior has, I'm afraid, irrevocably colored my views. Or maybe it's just a Texas thang. 8-)

I agree completely that the children of the wealthy should forgo scholarships, my son is presently in a state program that does not accept tuition, I'm pleased to have been able to make it up through donations.

Eric, did you ever discuss antibiotic development with Rick on the way to Bermuda? He spent his entire career at Pfizer and knows the workings of big Pharma quite well, I seem to recall him telling me that they had quite a few things in the pipeline, but they would be very, very different from what we are using now. The owner/skipper of Lyra is also a pharma guy.

Ahh, like most thinking people's your politics are pretty watery, Rob. I was hoping for some red meat. ;) Just as a counter-data point, I did not turn down the VA education benefit I used for my daughter at Vassar, nor the "scholarship" which made up the rest, despite our being completely prepared to pay cash. We contributed fairly generously to the school out of gratitude, but perhaps we did wrong.

No, the five of us just compared sexual exploits the whole way to Bermuda, but I did, in fact, know that about Rick.

Pharma is a very interesting business (and if I ever got a hankering for a really fancy boat, I'd answer one of those emails and move to NJ--and live on airplanes and never sail again). They have the chops to combat the ills of mankind in a hundred innovative ways, but they do business in a grossly distorted market and have to sell us boner drugs instead.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:25 pm

BeauV wrote:Rob, despite the obvious, indeed PAINFULLY obvious, benefits of investing in public education; all sorts of "great" men have decided it didn't make sense. The one I found the most painful is Ronald Reagan. As the governor of Calif. he basically tore apart the UC and St.Uni system. He even had the balls to say that higher education was best left to those how had parents who could afford it - or words to that effect. (He also closed all our mental health hospitals, but I can't start talking about that or I'll go crazy and there's no where left to lock me up!)

I really do have tremendous difficulty reconciling the obvious benefits with the pathological aversion to investing in education by some of the folks who would benefit from it most. I'm going to sound like a rich asshole here, but I paid for my two kids to go through Stanford and Yale. They both earned scholarships which I made them turn-down. I have enough money to pay for their education and the scholarships should go to kids who don't have parents with quite a deep enough checkbook. But, for middle-class folks who certainly can't "afford" Yale, Harvard or Stanford to be harping on the "waste" of public higher education is astounding to me. How can capitalism work if people won't argue for their own self-interest??? As a full-cry capitalist, I am DEEPLY offended. Also, I'm confused. We see this in our culture constantly. For some reason a reasonably good sized segment of our society supports the fantasy that we rich guys have foisted on them. They're frigging libertarians who don't understand that they are the hunted not the hunter! I so wish this wasn't so, but every time I see some middle class person railing against the "safety net" and against "single payer health care system of socialize medicine" I have to shake my head and mumble to myself: "How can we have a democracy that works and capitalism that works, if the citizens are too stupid to know their own best interest?" As the King in the King & I would say: "It is a puzzlement!"


You've identified something that really puzzles those of us outside the States. Your right wingers have done an astounding job of duping a big chunk of your society into voting against their own interests and for the small segment who are only interested in themselves. It seems to be done by appealing to the fantasy of getting them to vote for how they will want things to be when THEY become rich - which will never happen since they are, in effect, voting for a process that will prevent that very thing from ever happening.

"There's one born every minute" covers it I guess.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kdh » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:45 pm

SloopJonB wrote:...appealing to the fantasy of getting them to vote for how they will want things to be when THEY become rich


I think you've nailed it here, Jon. "The land of opportunity." We're all potentially wealthy and even the wealthy are "middle class." But it's come true for some of us. My parents met in a potato field and my dad was the first in his family to go to college.

I prefer talk of "land of opportunity" to that of the "wealth disparity," even if only that the former is more optimistic.
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