My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:03 pm

That's the way is WAS and should be but is rapidly becoming only a memory for the vast majority. An incident in your last election said it all to me - Romney was at that pizza barons house for a fund raiser - private 18 hole golf course and all. He said "I want EVERYONE to live this way".

As if.

A lot of people buy into that fantasy though. The result has been that social mobility in the States has been falling for decades and now is well behind many other countries.

We have it here too. A poll a few years ago asked a statistically significant number of Canadians how they planned to finance their retirement. More than 50% said they were counting on winning the lottery. :o

Maybe it's as simple as the successful people being able to separate dreams from reality.

I'll stop now - this is getting too political. ;)
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Charlie » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:22 pm

Reading through this thread, I'm struck by two things:

1. We've got a really accomplished group of people in our little clubhouse, with a diverse set of skills and experiences. But all pretty impressive.

2. Not everyone here has the same views on society, politics, etc. BUT, everyone is respectful of others, and their right to have a differing opinions. And we get reasoned discourse, by recognizing that there is more in common than opposed. It's a good example that I expect you all bring to the real world too.

I like hanging out here.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:35 pm

SJB,

We're all puzzled by this. That said, this really is a "Land of Opportunity" for many, but not that many. My maternal grandfather was an orphan and sold off to a pair of sisters for intentured servitude. My Mom ended up with a PhD and was a prof at UCLA, I'm just a deadbeat x-private equity guy. That sort of change within 3 generations is simply impossible in Holland, where we're from.

That said, one key to understanding US politics is to realize that the extremely rich, upon realizing that their days were numbered after WW2, made a deal with the religious right wing and the gun nuts. The super rich provide the money and the religious and NRA provide the mass votes. This has mostly kept the Republican Party relevant for a while. The difficulty for them is that the Hispanic population is religious, but they are Catholics and more tolerant - consider the current pope. For any number of reasons, the Hispanics are more closely alighted with the more tolerant Democratic Party, and not with the fundamentalist Prodestants. Thus, the sudden concern in the Rep party with immigration reform, and the angst that abortion might not be the "we don't care about anything else" issue it has been. With the most populous and politically powerful states in the US becoming steadily more Hispanic, the rich WASP vote is in trouble. Things will be quite different in 20 years.

BV
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:13 pm

I don't think it's a huge mystery. Lacking strong social or economic class identifications, people here vote identity and ideology. Middle class people who value ideals of independence and personal responsibility voting against regulations or programs which might protect them is no stranger than rich and influential people voting for higher taxes and government protections for the weak, which I assume many here have done.

On a personal note, may I respectfully request that we refrain from blanket characterizations of classes of our fellow citizens? The "Rght Wingers" I know may be nuts, but some of them are pretty smart and have arrived at their (benighted) opinions by legitimate cultural and cognitive means. They even sincerely wish good on most of their fellow humans. In fact, some of them are even polite enought too feign respect for my (enlightened) opinions and don't regard "Liberals" as a faceless horde of mendacious communist Occupiers. What chafes folks' nipples is when we substitute cutout targets for real individuals, and forget how complicated their lives are. I think if we avoid that, maybe we can talk a little politics. I loves me some politics, but, as I have said, I loves Y'all more.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby LarryHoward » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:20 pm

Orestes Munn wrote:I don't think it's a huge mystery. Lacking strong social or economic class identifications, people here vote identity and ideology. Middle class people who value ideals of independence and personal responsibility voting against regulations or programs which might protect them is no stranger than rich and influential people voting for higher taxes and government protections for the weak, which I assume many here have done.

On a personal note, may I respectfully request that we refrain from blanket characterizations of classes of our fellow citizens? The "Rght Wingers" I know may be nuts, but some of them are pretty smart and have arrived at their (benighted) opinions by legitimate cultural and cognitive means. They even sincerely wish good on most of their fellow humans. In fact, some of them are even polite enought too feign respect for my (enlightened) opinions and don't regard "Liberals" as a faceless horde of mendacious communist Occupiers. What chafes folks' nipples is when we substitute cutout targets for real individuals, and forget how complicated their lives are. I think if we avoid that, maybe we can talk a little politics. I loves me some politics, but, as I have said, I loves Y'all more.


I'm not so sure about you and your opinions, though. It's a damn good thing you like single malt, sailing and have a good wife and a kind heart.

I think the real problem is that 60-70% of the country is solidly in the middle and conflicted because it often ends up to be a polarizing issue that folks vote "against" but because of the balkanization of politics, you can't pick and choose your issues because organizations that are the power brokers won't allow their politicians to breathe. Both parties are much closer to the edges than the public at large. I'm just about ready to say a parliamentary system with multiple factions that has to build a coalition to govern has potential due to the checks and balances of shifting loyalties. For me, I'm 100% moderate and you radicals on both sides need to calm down.

Charlie,

The key really is that we like and respect each other far to much to stop listening. We'll step back from the bar long before we'd give up these friends.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kdh » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:33 pm

So insightful, Eric.

Political discourse is difficult. If instead of taking sides we distill our political thinking into individuals' opinions about needs for regulation and public spending vs leaving it to market or direct popular forces, to me, things are a lot easier. I'm offended by anyone's pegging me left or right.

Once we simplify it to, "Are you one of us?" To me there's nowhere to go.

No intent to criticize anyone here in this.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:06 pm

BeauV wrote:SJB,

We're all puzzled by this. That said, this really is a "Land of Opportunity" for many, but not that many. My maternal grandfather was an orphan and sold off to a pair of sisters for intentured servitude. My Mom ended up with a PhD and was a prof at UCLA, I'm just a deadbeat x-private equity guy. That sort of change within 3 generations is simply impossible in Holland, where we're from.

That said, one key to understanding US politics is to realize that the extremely rich, upon realizing that their days were numbered after WW2, made a deal with the religious right wing and the gun nuts. The super rich provide the money and the religious and NRA provide the mass votes. This has mostly kept the Republican Party relevant for a while. The difficulty for them is that the Hispanic population is religious, but they are Catholics and more tolerant - consider the current pope. For any number of reasons, the Hispanics are more closely alighted with the more tolerant Democratic Party, and not with the fundamentalist Prodestants. Thus, the sudden concern in the Rep party with immigration reform, and the angst that abortion might not be the "we don't care about anything else" issue it has been. With the most populous and politically powerful states in the US becoming steadily more Hispanic, the rich WASP vote is in trouble. Things will be quite different in 20 years.

BV


VERY interesting comments Beau. The opportunity you speak of is also available here - my wifes' paternal grandmother lived in a "soddy" (sod hut) on the prairies - real pioneer stuff, making her own soap and growing & storing enough food to last the year. My wife & I wouldn't last one winter like that. :)

That said, we don't have the same polarization and ideologically driven politics you all suffer from. It's here but far more muted. I'm sure most or at least many Americans regard us as at least a little "pink", if not downright socialists.

That linkage of the mega rich with the NRA and the religious fanatics is very interesting - I've never heard it put quite that way before but it "listens". You're certainly right about the Rep party. If they don't shut down the extreme fanatics they will never gain power again. You can't elect a majority by only appealing to a fanatical, one track minority. At least it looks like the Tea Party is a spent force, judging by the latest State elections. If the Rep's are smart they'll put up Christie next time - he at least looks & sounds electable. Losing 150 Lbs wouldn't hurt his chances either. If they keep putting people like Palin & Bachmann up front they're dead.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:18 pm

Orestes Munn wrote:I don't think it's a huge mystery. Lacking strong social or economic class identifications, people here vote identity and ideology. Middle class people who value ideals of independence and personal responsibility voting against regulations or programs which might protect them is no stranger than rich and influential people voting for higher taxes and government protections for the weak, which I assume many here have done.

On a personal note, may I respectfully request that we refrain from blanket characterizations of classes of our fellow citizens? The "Rght Wingers" I know may be nuts, but some of them are pretty smart and have arrived at their (benighted) opinions by legitimate cultural and cognitive means.


Re: the first part - I have never voted ideologically, I always voted for what I thought was best for the country at that time. Usually that meant voting against my personal best interests - I've been in the highest tax bracket since my twenties. I regard sociopolitical ideology as merely an excuse for not thinking for oneself.

As to the second part, I make a big distinction between conservatives and right wingers. Conservatives have rational, reasoned opinions which frequently, even usually, differ from my own but whom I still respect. Right wingers are the nut cases who have thoughtless, unreasoned, emotional responses to sociopolitical topics and very frequently only have one reason to vote - guns, religion, abortion etc. whom I not only don't respect but am actually contemptuous of.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Brooke » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:15 pm

Wow - politics usually bores me to death but you guys make it interesting (and civilized!). Keep going please.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Lin » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:35 pm

Brooke wrote:Wow - politics usually bores me to death but you guys make it interesting (and civilized!). Keep going please.

I agree! Not that I find it boring per se, but I lose patience with those who make blanket generalizations, and who disregard everything another person attempts to explain or convey, simply because they have identified with a particular party. One of the greatest skills I admire in people is their ability to learn how to disagree with another, while still maintaining a genuine, respectful tone and manner.
This thread has been interesting to read.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Rob McAlpine » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:58 pm

SloopJonB wrote:
If they keep putting people like Palin & Bachmann up front they're dead.


For every Sarah Palin there's a Maxine Waters. Michelle Bachmann is nicely offset by Alan Grayson. The disturbing thing about extremists, is both side have them aplenty, and they all scare the hell out of me. What's rare are guys like me and Larry in the middle. :D

Funny thing is, at the end of the day we all want the same things - safe neighborhoods, good schools, good healthcare, freedom to worship (or not) as we please without interference, satisfying careers, good futures for our children, the freedom to live and think as we wish, and sexy f'n sailboats. We want these things not just for ourselves, but we want others to have them too, as well as the chance to fulfill their dreams, even if they don't involve killer sailboats and offshore sailing, because we are, conservative and liberal alike, pretty nice people, just wanting the best for everyone, and I truly believe this. We're much closer than our self=serving politicians would have us believe.

There are legitimate differences of opinion as how to best achieve these goals, but just because someone thinks there's a different path to the same destination shouldn't make them your enemy. We need to respect differing opinions held in good faith.

And there's the rub. Understanding that those who may disagree with us do so in good faith, not because they wish others ill, or are greedy, stupid, or evil.

Even Texans. ;)
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:21 pm

Rob,

Well said! As soon as we toss a politician out of office for insulting someone, we'll make a massive step forward. As soon as we let Fox and MS/NBS know that we're switching them both OFF because they're both extreme, bigoted and excessive, we'll make a massive step forward. It is up to us. Extremism has clearly driven viewership on TV and readership in the press/on-line - moderates are hurting in the ratings. Is this because most folks are extreme? I don't think so. I believe most folks are really in the middle. But, for those of us in the "we watched Walter Cronkite" generation it's difficult to accept that most of our current "newscasters" are highly biased and entirely, utterly, and completely self-serving and unreliable as "reporters". For extremist reporters, it's far easier to take the McCarthy approach of defining someone as an "enemy" and thus evil, than it is to carefully argue with their positions. In an era of 10 second sound-bites, thoughtful discourse suffers.

Sadly, we're currently facing some serious problems in our country and our world, yet our "leadership" on all sides seems solely focused on litmus tests of loyalty rather than on serious solutions.

BV
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:10 am

One of the areas where I think the Net and other electronic media is hurting society is by its very ability to provide everything on demand. This has had the effect of narrowing peoples intake to those they look for I.E. already agree with. If you read a newspaper you get such things as columnists with opposing views. If you look up your news on the web you get only what you look for.

I think this has a lot to do with the polarization going on these days. It also is shortening peoples already short attention spans.

You are absolutely right about the talking heads. When I was young there was Uncle Walter on American TV and we had Lloyd Robertson here. Now kids have Limbaugh, Coulter and their demagogic ilk.

I truly worry about the future - the more easily available information becomes, the less it seems to get through with any variety or substance. Everything is becoming so trivial - soundbites instead of intelligent analysis, personalities and appearances instead of integrity, shrill partisanship instead of journalism. It seems to be accelerating downwards as well.

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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:18 am

JonB,

Many of my friends complain bitterly that I write complete sentences.

Tribalization is a powerful force in humans; we have a need to belong that has tremendous survival value. The internet has allowed the 1 in 10,000 lover of chocolate-halipanio candy bars to find the other 1 in 10,000 and form a "movement". Ever since the beginning of the "net", back in the earliest days when we were all on The Well, it was precisely and exactly the best and the worst of what we've all seen. The constant, human nature. The variable, technology. We in the technology sphere are accelerating the best and the worst aspects of human nature; sort of a social cyclotron.

I'm getting dizzy.

BV
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Olaf Hart » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:59 am

I claim no competence in US Politics, but observe it keenly.

On the other hand, I worked five years as a senior staffer the hottest cauldron of Oz politics, and as an advisor for years after.

Political supporters take politics much more seriously than politicians.

Politicians play the conflict game to differentiate the product, but they all end up drinking at the same bar. Government is the great leveller, there are few options or choices at the pointy end.

In government, both sides usually end up making pretty much the same decisions, with the same priorities.

The media is now entertainment, not news. They also play the conflict game, it sells. In oz the media are more likely to find a conflict angle in a situation than are the opposition.

So to me politics is just a game, and the public are the willing victims.

Until something unbelievable happens like the recent debt standoff, and the US throws away it's status as the world default currency. The number of contracts with China signed in yuan has climbed from 4% to 8% in the last twelve months.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Tigger » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:56 am

SloopJonB wrote:
That said, we don't have the same polarization and ideologically driven politics you all suffer from. It's here but far more muted. I'm sure most or at least many Americans regard us as at least a little "pink", if not downright socialists.



From my vantage point (I could be wrong!) ... one of the big differences between Canada and the US is that our banking system is a little more 'conservative', while, somewhat curiously, our society is a little more 'liberal'. These are, admittedly, big generalizations.

However, we remain God's frozen people. :lolno:
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kdh » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:07 am

I know that you guys in British Columbia live in a beautiful place. Breathtaking.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:24 am

Now that's what I call a calming influence! :D
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:27 am

BeauV wrote: We in the technology sphere are accelerating the best and the worst aspects of human nature; sort of a social cyclotron.

BV


Lets hope it results in a fusion rather than a fission reaction.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:49 am

Eric, you make terrific points. The recent destruction of the US credit rating by what is really a tiny minority of the Congress and the population is a great reminder of how few dedicated radicals, of any political bent, can cause massiv events. In history we have the 15% of the Aemerican colonies that basically caused, fought and won the US independence. One with a major impact on my own family was the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, forcing our migration and the loss of about 3/4 of our members.

Most politicos will do basically the same thing.... Until they don't. Thus a very healthy dislike of extremist of any flavor on my part.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:03 am

BeauV wrote:Eric, you make terrific points. The recent destruction of the US credit rating by what is really a tiny minority of the Congress and the population is a great reminder of how few dedicated radicals, of any political bent, can cause massiv events. In history we have the 15% of the Aemerican colonies that basically caused, fought and won the US independence. One with a major impact on my own family was the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, forcing our migration and the loss of about 3/4 of our members.

Most politicos will do basically the same thing.... Until they don't. Thus a very healthy dislike of extremist of any flavor on my part.

Interesting, Beau.

My dad was a German refugee and lost quite a few relatives. The Nazis certainly figured large in my life and have shaped my views on things. Incidentally, my dad's family and their contemporaries were all politically and culturally liberal before, during, and after the experience.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Lin » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:03 pm

kdh wrote:I know that you guys in British Columbia live in a beautiful place. Breathtaking.

We in BC are fortunate to be surrounded with an abundance of natural beauty. The outdoor activites British Columbia affords, are endless. What we miss are the centuries old buildings whose architecture I find interesting and lovely. Our cities and towns are so young in comparison to others. I enjoyed spending a month in Britain a few years ago, to explore the castles and towns, and see how history influenced architecture and style.

Yes, I'm biased. I grew up here and spent years enjoying skiing and horseback riding. Sailing, hiking and golfing (to a degree) are enjoyed year round, in the milder Southwest corner of the province. Another passion is wildlife watching, which one does not have to travel far to enjoy.

To be honest though, I can't think of anywhere I have visited and spent time outside of BC, that did not have it's own unique beauty, in some form or another.

Here is a taste of BC -> http://youtu.be/CpokAdwh35o

Sorry for hijack ...
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby SloopJonB » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:42 pm

Orestes Munn wrote:
BeauV wrote:Eric, you make terrific points. The recent destruction of the US credit rating by what is really a tiny minority of the Congress and the population is a great reminder of how few dedicated radicals, of any political bent, can cause massiv events. In history we have the 15% of the Aemerican colonies that basically caused, fought and won the US independence. One with a major impact on my own family was the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, forcing our migration and the loss of about 3/4 of our members.

Most politicos will do basically the same thing.... Until they don't. Thus a very healthy dislike of extremist of any flavor on my part.

Interesting, Beau.

My dad was a German refugee and lost quite a few relatives. The Nazis certainly figured large in my life and have shaped my views on things. Incidentally, my dad's family and their contemporaries were all politically and culturally liberal before, during, and after the experience.


I imagine that would be the case with most people who suffered through that horror. I think it unlikely that experiences like that would make anyone a right winger. I remember when I was in my 20's there was a great Jewish restaurant in Kitsilano (Lindy's for you locals). My friends & I were regulars and one day Leo, the owner, sat & chatted with us. He had his sleeves rolled up and I noticed he still had numbers tattooed on his forearm.

It was my first direct experience with that nightmare and it really affected me - the realization that it was that recent, not something in history books.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:36 pm

SloopJonB wrote:
Orestes Munn wrote:
BeauV wrote:Eric, you make terrific points. The recent destruction of the US credit rating by what is really a tiny minority of the Congress and the population is a great reminder of how few dedicated radicals, of any political bent, can cause massiv events. In history we have the 15% of the Aemerican colonies that basically caused, fought and won the US independence. One with a major impact on my own family was the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, forcing our migration and the loss of about 3/4 of our members.

Most politicos will do basically the same thing.... Until they don't. Thus a very healthy dislike of extremist of any flavor on my part.

Interesting, Beau.

My dad was a German refugee and lost quite a few relatives. The Nazis certainly figured large in my life and have shaped my views on things. Incidentally, my dad's family and their contemporaries were all politically and culturally liberal before, during, and after the experience.


I imagine that would be the case with most people who suffered through that horror. I think it unlikely that experiences like that would make anyone a right winger. I remember when I was in my 20's there was a great Jewish restaurant in Kitsilano (Lindy's for you locals). My friends & I were regulars and one day Leo, the owner, sat & chatted with us. He had his sleeves rolled up and I noticed he still had numbers tattooed on his forearm.

It was my first direct experience with that nightmare and it really affected me - the realization that it was that recent, not something in history books.

It was largely true of German Jews, who were generally educated, assimilated, and well-off. Conservative parties and entities, such militaries and aristocracies, in early 20th Century Europe, were uniformly and often virulently antisemitic, so there was little place for conservative Jews. Disraeli was a Conservative in only the British political sense, as far as I can tell. Jews were good German patriots and served in WWI, including my grandfather, a medical officer and earned the Iron Cross. Others, famously Fritz Haber, the inventor of the nitrogen fixing process and modern chemical warfare, not only served but put on all the airs of a booted Prussian, but were quickly disillusioned with the rise of Hitler. Eastern European Jews, whose politics could not be described as liberal, had tended toward Socialism since the 19th century. None of that changed int he first refugee generation, so I don't think the experience really did much to shape the politics of the survivors. However, the Nazi holocaust was and still is frequently invoked as a justification for some of the excesses of Zionism, a movement with socialist origins, but a rather conservative cast at present and a majority of our Neoconservatives, most of whom look pretty middle of the road by current standards, are Jewish. I don't know how many are the children of Nazi holocaust survivors or refugees.

Anecdotally, my father and Henry (known then as Heinz) Kissinger were drafted into the same US Army intel unit as soon as they set foot on US soil. Henry was no bleeding heart. Significantly, however, my father always claimed that Heinz and his buddies stole a precious Hungarian salami, which his mom had sent him all the way from Schaller & Weber in NYC.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Olaf Hart » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:38 pm

BeauV wrote:Eric, you make terrific points. The recent destruction of the US credit rating by what is really a tiny minority of the Congress and the population is a great reminder of how few dedicated radicals, of any political bent, can cause massiv events. In history we have the 15% of the Aemerican colonies that basically caused, fought and won the US independence. One with a major impact on my own family was the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, forcing our migration and the loss of about 3/4 of our members.

Most politicos will do basically the same thing.... Until they don't. Thus a very healthy dislike of extremist of any flavor on my part.


Beau, we're those comments directed at Eric's post or to mine?
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby Orestes Munn » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:58 pm

Olaf Hart wrote:
BeauV wrote:Eric, you make terrific points. The recent destruction of the US credit rating by what is really a tiny minority of the Congress and the population is a great reminder of how few dedicated radicals, of any political bent, can cause massiv events. In history we have the 15% of the Aemerican colonies that basically caused, fought and won the US independence. One with a major impact on my own family was the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, forcing our migration and the loss of about 3/4 of our members.

Most politicos will do basically the same thing.... Until they don't. Thus a very healthy dislike of extremist of any flavor on my part.


Beau, we're those comments directed at Eric's post or to mine?

Looks like yours, but that didn't even slow me down!
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kdh » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:05 pm

Lin, I'm glad you wrote, as I worried when I said "guys" you might think I was excluding you. I've visited your area only once, the University of British Columbia, to give a paper. It was a long time ago. I remember mountains coming out of the sea and a great nude beach.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby kdh » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:18 pm

Beau, on "destruction of the US credit rating."

I think we can be comforted that ratings agencies, especially after our recent mortgage and housing bubble debacle, are ignored by the markets. Indeed, I think our federal reserve stances are ignored beyond the influence of their own trading of bonds and stocks in the public markets and the printing of money (quantitative easing).

I've always suspected Alan Greenspan knew this was coming. I mostly respect that he plainly admitted he was surprised and was mistaken in his beliefs about market self-regulation. To me an astonishing and rare act of humility given his place in the world.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:38 am

Olaf Hart wrote:
BeauV wrote:Eric, you make terrific points. The recent destruction of the US credit rating by what is really a tiny minority of the Congress and the population is a great reminder of how few dedicated radicals, of any political bent, can cause massiv events. In history we have the 15% of the Aemerican colonies that basically caused, fought and won the US independence. One with a major impact on my own family was the rise of the Nazi party in Germany, forcing our migration and the loss of about 3/4 of our members.

Most politicos will do basically the same thing.... Until they don't. Thus a very healthy dislike of extremist of any flavor on my part.


Beau, we're those comments directed at Eric's post or to mine?


Olaf, my mistake! I'm terribly sorry, I think I've been focused on other things. Yes, I was responding to your comment on the damage heaped on the US Credit rating that you referenced.

In thinking about it further, I feel that there is a small group of Congressmen who might believe that by reducing the US ability to borrow money the US will be forced to reduce its deficit spending. I don't think they really understand what a one or two point increase in the cost of our debt would do to our economy, as they've grown up in an era when the US could always borrow whatever it wanted at a rate that was a couple of points lower than anyone else.
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Re: My old Perfesser - to Fiddler's green

Postby BeauV » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:43 am

kdh wrote:Beau, on "destruction of the US credit rating."

I think we can be comforted that ratings agencies, especially after our recent mortgage and housing bubble debacle, are ignored by the markets. Indeed, I think our federal reserve stances are ignored beyond the influence of their own trading of bonds and stocks in the public markets and the printing of money (quantitative easing).

I've always suspected Alan Greenspan knew this was coming. I mostly respect that he plainly admitted he was surprised and was mistaken in his beliefs about market self-regulation. To me an astonishing and rare act of humility given his place in the world.


Keith, "destruction" is probably much too strong a word. But I believe that many countries are starting to denote their debt in something other than US Dollars. As that happens, we will loose a major economic power that we've and for a very long time; since WW2 really.

Regarding Greenspan, I couldn't agree more that is admission of an error was astounding for someone in his position. I too believe that markets would self-regulate better than they did, indeed I still can't quite figure out why the don't. There is clear evidence of a fundamental irrationality about markets that doesn't seem to be reflected in the literature anywhere.
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