Navy ROTC Waivers

[Soñadora]

Greetings Scantlingers

As some of you know, I posted a proud announcement at the beginning of the year that my daughter had been accepted into NROTC at University of Minnesota. This was a HUGE announcement for her.
Unfortunately, shortly after getting accepted, she started hearing that there was no way she'd be able to continue. That she'd get DQ'd as soon as she applied for scholarship. The reason for this is due to a flag on her medical history.

around 12 years old she had some issues that were diagnosed as being related to asthma. As a borderline extreme athlete, we were told she should get an inhaler. She used it for about 2 years but in the years since, maybe once or twice and her prescription was automatically renewed.

She has always been very focused on health and athletics. She plays college club soccer. She trains at a facility that trains college and professional athletes. She has not had any complications with asthma in years.

She has truly excelled in the NROTC environment, particularly in PT. She loves the camaraderie and the focus of purpose that is exhibited by all. But she is discouraged as she is told by so many other midshipmen that there's no way she'll get past that. There is a waiver process, but she has been told it's next to impossible to get a waiver. But my take is that there must be some opportunity to make this work. Otherwise why would there even be a waiver process?

I get it. I understand the zero tolerance policy and the danger someone with asthma could pose for others. But she has not shown any signs for years and in fact excels physically. She would be a real asset to the Navy and I'm not just saying that as a dad. She has really taken to the qualities offered by the military: discipline, order, teamwork. It would be a shame to see that dashed. Ironically, one of her mates has failed all the PT tests but she has no issues otherwise that would require a waiver.

If anyone has any experience with this or information on where we could get better information, it would be greatly appreciated.

[kimbottles]

Don't accept the story the other midshipmen are circulating, go find the people in charge and vet it via them. Go to the source and ignore the rumors.

Best of luck!

[BeauV]

Dr. Eric to aisle 4, paging Dr. Eric.

[Olaf Hart]

Common issue with scuba training, asthma is an absolute contraindication.

My mate who is a sports physician and commander of the army reserve medical corps used a saline challenge test, which seemed to be the state of the art.

I would consult a good respiratory physician.

[Orestes Munn]

Common issue with scuba training, asthma is an absolute contraindication.

All you need for PADI certification is a waiver from a physician. I have mild, mostly asymptomatic, asthma, much like Rick's daughter, and have always had abnormal PFTs. No problem for diving. I will get a wheeze or two after a long hard, early season workout in dirty air and a little dehydration.

As far as I know, a history of childhood asthma is not a problem for basic military service as long as there have been no symptoms after some age, maybe 12 or 13. She should just be careful how she fills out the accession forms and should under no circumstances see a doctor unless required. You really don't want to create any adverse documentation.

[LarryHoward]

Sons,

Two things to consider.

First, other Mids are a source for rumors and opinions but never facts.

Second. As OM says, it's a minefield. ROTC offers guaranteed jobs and training right out of college with a funded scholarship but a "normal" college life for the most part. College degree and a good job with no college debt. Some folks will tell you its harder to get a ROTC scholarship than an appointment to a service academy. The screening often comes down to weeding out perfect from very, very good. She needs a some good reasons for them to work to qualify her, not work to disqualify her. Does she have an advocate? ROTC instructor or advisor who knows her and can push the system? That would be the best way to move stuff through the bureaucracy. Once the system is "invested" in a candidate, they will work hard to keep them. A bit of help through the entry gate will go a long way.

Medical boards and reviews are touchy. With more qualified candidates than positions, there is a tendency to not take any chances. I'm too far removed from that life to have current info but I'd listen to OM.

[Orestes Munn]

Sons,

Two things to consider.

First, other Mids are a source for rumors and opinions but never facts.

Second. As OM says, it's a minefield. ROTC offers guaranteed jobs and training right out of college with a funded scholarship but a "normal" college life for the most part. College degree and a good job with no college debt. Some folks will tell you its harder to get a ROTC scholarship than an appointment to a service academy. The screening often comes down to weeding out perfect from very, very good. She needs a some good reasons for them to work to qualify her, not work to disqualify her. Does she have an advocate? ROTC instructor or advisor who knows her and can push the system? That would be the best way to move stuff through the bureaucracy. Once the system is "invested" in a candidate, they will work hard to keep them. A bit of help through the entry gate will go a long way.

Medical boards and reviews are touchy. With more qualified candidates than positions, there is a tendency to not take any chances. I'm too far removed from that life to have current info but I'd listen to OM.

Larry is right that this might be used to make someone's bad job of choosing between heart-breakingly great kids easier. Your job is to keep it below that threshold. I am not suggesting untruthfulness, but this must always be referred to as "a history of childhood asthma" and no effort should be expended on remembering any attacks or treatment occurring after her 13th birthday.

Here is what I believe is the operative accession standard

http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nami/arwg/Documents/WaiverGuide/DODI_6130.03_JUL12.pdf

Case-by case waivers appear common.

[Soñadora]

Thanks guys. I concur that she needs to not put too much stock in what the other mids are saying. She is really getting worked up by one Mid in particular who has had a history of migraines and has sent in 5 or 6 waivers already.

[BeauV]

Thanks guys. I concur that she needs to not put too much stock in what the other mids are saying. She is really getting worked up by one Mid in particular who has had a history of migraines and has sent in 5 or 6 waivers already.

Rick, I'm not sure she should "trust" other mids with this information. My general operating philosophy as always been need-to-know only on all stuff like this. I know she may thing they are her friends. She may be wrong. BV

[Soñadora]

It's like anything else, right? No one likes failing alone. So the other mids who are facing the waiver process want to share the pain.

It's unusual for Sonja to put so much stock on what others think. It tells me that she is very passionate about this and is nervous about the emotional risk. She doesn't handle defeat very well. Which, in and of itself if it comes to that, is a lesson learned.

She is no stranger to giving 110%. I told her in this case she has to give 111%. She needs to make sure when she reflects on this she can't say she didn't give it everything.

I suggested that she start building rapport with the senior staff. Her counselor is a Marine Lt. and the CO is a Captain. She asked, "what do I do if I start to cry when I'm talking to them?"

You don't fucking cry, that's what you do.

She knows me.

[Olaf Hart]

Common issue with scuba training, asthma is an absolute contraindication.

All you need for PADI certification is a waiver from a physician. I have mild, mostly asymptomatic, asthma, much like Rick's daughter, and have always had abnormal PFTs. No problem for diving. I will get a wheeze or two after a long hard, early season workout in dirty air and a little dehydration.

As far as I know, a history of childhood asthma is not a problem for basic military service as long as there have been no symptoms after some age, maybe 12 or 13. She should just be careful how she fills out the accession forms and should under no circumstances see a doctor unless required. You really don't want to create any adverse documentation.

We are a lot stricter about diving and asthma down here

[LarryHoward]

It's like anything else, right? No one likes failing alone. So the other mids who are facing the waiver process want to share the pain.

It's unusual for Sonja to put so much stock on what others think. It tells me that she is very passionate about this and is nervous about the emotional risk. She doesn't handle defeat very well. Which, in and of itself if it comes to that, is a lesson learned.

She is no stranger to giving 110%. I told her in this case she has to give 111%. She needs to make sure when she reflects on this she can't say she didn't give it everything.

I suggested that she start building rapport with the senior staff. Her counselor is a Marine Lt. and the CO is a Captain. She asked, "what do I do if I start to cry when I'm talking to them?"

You don't fucking cry, that's what you do.

She knows me.

How aware of her current athletic endeavors and her medical waiver challenge are they. IOW, are they invested in he success? Do you have close friends who are retired senior officers who can contact someone who can help? Not a card that can be played often but a lot of ROTC advisors are retired active duty folks ( I know a couple but they are on the east cost) and connecting with them through someone they trust can be a big help.

As to they crying? Yeah. Not really helpful as most men can't handle it. What she does need to do is approach them forthrightly and honestly with a persuasive argument that she is exactly the person the Navy needs going forward and that this childhood potential problem was never a real issue and certainly not an issue now. Can she beat the Marine in the USMC PFT? Challenge him straight up. "Lt. I'll prove my fitness. How about we meet tomorrow and run the PFT together?"

[Orestes Munn]

Clarification: PFT=physical fitness test AND pulmonary function tests.

[LarryHoward]

Clarification: PFT=physical fitness test AND pulmonary function tests.

Quite correct.

[Orestes Munn]

Clarification: PFT=physical fitness test AND pulmonary function tests.

Quite correct.

...and you can have a great PFT with nominally abnormal PFTs.

[floating dutchman]

I have to do a Medical Fitness for Seafarers and to be honest, the subject of Asthma has never come up. In saying that I have never seen one of my workmates use an inhaler.
In my last medical I had back issues, examiner saw it when I got up from the chair. "who over 40 doesn't have something sore" and down played as much as I could. I got away with it and my back has recovered (mostly) since.
When she gets asked about asthma, "got given an inhaler when I was 12 when doing lot's of sports, used it twice and found I didn't really need it" would be a good answer. If asked about the repeat prescription.. "Oh yea, don't know why mum and dad got me that" or something to that effect......

Fact is, she is a better bet to a tax payer that some fat ass that never exerted them self enough to expose a possibly worse condition.

Down play, clean conscience.

Jeroen.

[BeauV]

Rick - I love Larry's suggestion: "Lt. I'll prove my fitness. How about we meet tomorrow and run the PFT together?" I know how my Marine Lt. would respond to a woman who said that. "You're ON!" and he'd be seriously impressed if she did well. Great idea!

[Orestes Munn]

BTW, the asthma issue has nothing to do with fitness, but with becoming incapacitated in a burning ship or a hayloft. The number of evacuations for asthma during our glorious adventures in the Middle East is surprisingly high.

[BeauV]

Speaking of the Middle East, the Marine I mentioned above just sent me an email five minutes ago. His unit (part of Marine 1/4) has now deployed to someplace in the Middle East where there is fighting going on. He has been moved from the semi-diplomatic job he was filling in some "Middle East Country's Capital" back to his infantry platoon, which he refers to as "My Marines". He's a happy Grunt now.

[Soñadora]

So get this...

My daughter is a fitness nut. She went to Boulder for a drill competition with the E-team (Endurance Team). From that experience, her comment was, "the Navy is too easy. I want to switch to the Marines."

She specifically asked me to consult with you guys to see what your thoughts were on that. Apparently, something like 6% of the Marines are women. She loves that and finds it intriguing to be challenged. I'm just wondering what her intellectual opportunities may be in the Marines.

She's something else, I tell you.

[LarryHoward]

Sons,

She should pursue the service that matches her desires. Each service has specialty occupations and she needs to make a decision as the what career field she wants to peruse.

A Marines are tougher than the Navy decision is, in my mind fairly immature. Which service will provider he the intellectual challenge and growth she is looking for?

Just my thoughts after 33 years of Navy life.

[Orestes Munn]

The social environment for women varies widely and could be the difference between a long and satisfying career and a short and bitter experience. Unfortunately, physical toughness and fearlessness aren't always enough to cope with the hostility of one's fellow service members. Have you and she been following the current scandal over the web site with pictures of female marines? This may represent a minority—and it is by no means clear to me that it does—but it would bother me that men my daughter was entrusting with her life regarded her as a piece of meat.

[BeauV]

Rick,

I can't speak for the Navy, while my Dad was a Chief in the Navy that was WW2. I can speak for the Marines to the extent my son has described what has been going on visa vi women. The Congress basically forced the Marine Corps to run a long-term test over the past several years to see if women could be in combat. There are many women in the Marines, as your daughter noted, but they aren't "in the business of the businesses" which is infantry. I don't know about enlisted troops or warrant officers, but amongst Officers, no woman had managed to make it through the physical test or through OCS as of 2014 (as far as I know). Many had tried. Keep in mind that about 1/3 of the men can't make it through those gates. In his efforts to excel at the physical side, my son found he was competing with two x-NFL players, and a number of x-Collegiate athletes from sports like rugby, football, wrestling, and gymnastics. John managed to make it to #2 in his class, but it was extremely hard on him. He was a state-ranked cross country runner in High School and a fair bit of surviving OCS is endurance not strength.

Again, second hand from my son, it seems that there is quite a difference between the enlisted ranks, warrant officers, and the officer corps. My understanding is that the sexual harassment we're seeing is from the former two and not the later, although I'm certain of that and may have some bias. As to viewing people as a "piece of meat", I think that you'll find that occurs in many largely male organizations. Women socialize we men, take them away, we act like animals in a number of ways. You're seeing this play out within the culture of Uber, which has driven almost all of the women out of the organization. It has happened at numerous tech companies. I do have personal experience in this. If the leadership doesn't come down like a ton-o-bricks on the guys who do this, and repeatedly stop it from happening, it will happen. It happened in the operations I ran in Korea, Japan, France, UK and the US. I don't think it's nearly as cultural as some would think. I think it's the way a significant percentage of men behave when not corrected.

Finally, I'd say that if your daughter want's something that's tougher, she doesn't realize that even in the Marines only a small percentage of the force needs to be tough. The Marines have a much higher percentage of the force that is required to do things like pick up a 130lb pack, plus 35lb of body armor, plus your weapon, and run five miles. Which is what my son's platoon just got done doing once a day in the desert prior to their deployment. For every individual doing that, there are at least 10 doing something far less physical; like flying a chopper, doing paperwork, driving a fuel truck, etc.... She should keep in mind that the military runs on astoundingly good logistics, not guys with knives wrestling bad guys to the ground so they can gut them. Women are often quite good at logistics. So if she wants to make a big organization work well, then the military is for her. But working well has little to do with how many one-arm push-ups you can do or how far you can run. The Marines are quite proud of being tougher and stronger, as a group, than any other military organization (except Seals). It's part of their psyche. But it's not actually that germain to what they actually do both in the field and day to day on base.

[Olaf Hart]

I advise kids to pursue the path they find the easiest, not the path that is a challenge.

The concept is the easiest path aligns with their natural strengths, and they will go a lot further along that path than the challenging one, which often aligns with their natural weaknesses.

So, if her strength is physical endurance, she should go with that, but not necessarily where she has to compete with guys.

The navy must have openings for fitness trainers, physiotherapists etc, as well as the marines, why not look there?

[Soñadora]

Very useful feedback, guys.
I've stressed that her localized experience with a few Marine ROTC guys (very positive and encouraging) is not indicative of what it would really be like especially surrounded by enlisted guys.

And I like, "pursue the path they find easiest". It's sound logic.

[LarryHoward]

Very useful feedback, guys.
I've stressed that her localized experience with a few Marine ROTC guys (very positive and encouraging) is not indicative of what it would really be like especially surrounded by enlisted guys.

And I like, "pursue the path they find easiest". It's sound logic.

Any service position follows a career path. Life and focus changes but have her look at where her choice would naturally lead in 7-10 years and is that where she wants to go.

[Soñadora]

This kid is such a piece of work.

The other day, we were playing Life. I kept landing on the spaces where you get kids. Eventually I had 3 daughters. Looking at that little plastic car with one blue peg and 4 pink ones, it suddenly struck me how outnumbered I am. I mean, I always knew it but that image really hit home. It was hilarious.

She took some online survey that told her she should go in the Marines. But then she spoke with some Marine option guys who pointed out the sexual harassment percentage in the Marines is something like 3x higher than any other branch. On top of that, she found some articles about the Navy opening up traditionally male-only opportunities to women. She is hell-bent on trying out for BUDs. Spent several hours with her last night watching a documentary on SEAL training. She's tough. I know that. But I don't think she's SEALS tough. That documentary is very good and afterward, I climbed into my nice warm, dry bed and thoroughly enjoyed a good night's sleep. We have the coma-sleep gene so I don't know how she would fare in a situation like that. She's the type who will try it and constantly tell herself "I'll be the first to make it through".

Not sure where she gets that determination...

[BeauV]

Rick, my son John started out focused on the SEALs too. However, he had a separated shoulder in high-school (He leveled a guy who out weighed him by 30 lbs during a Lacross game). He was told once you've had any injury like that the SEALs won't even consider you. The physical side of being a SEAL is pretty darn tough, and the two I've known say that the test and school are the easy bits. Once you're actually in, it gets worse.

[Soñadora]

Oh no doubt. I mean, I love her to pieces and she's tough as nails but there's no way. She'd fold like a wet napkin. But telling her that just hardens her resolve. She's not afraid to fail but that's just because she believes she won't.

As for injuries, there were at least two guys in the documentary who had former injuries. One was a rotator cuff. He DOR'd. I can't image going through that with any sort of former injury like that.

[Orestes Munn]

I am the clinical site on a project studying the brain effects of occupational exposure to blast energy. We study mainly military breacher instructors, all of whom are senior elite operators. The toll of that profession (not explosive breaching) on the body is phenomenal. Think pro football.