The Case Against Reality

[Olaf Hart]

Warning, this is a bit of a downer, it's about the difference between perception and reality.

Max was a clinical tutor when I did my medical training at Royal North Shore Hospital in the early seventies.

A great guy, a real giver, played with the Wallabies so was a demigod to all the medical students.

But there was a backstory too.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relati ... b90f9786bc

Max played over three hundred first grade rugby games as a forward, may have contributed to his problem.

[JoeP]

Warning, this is a bit of a downer, it's about the difference between perception and reality.

Max was a clinical tutor when I did my medical training at Royal North Shore Hospital in the early seventies.

A great guy, a real giver, played with the Wallabies so was a demigod to all the medical students.

But there was a backstory too.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relati ... b90f9786bc

Max played over three hundred first grade rugby games as a forward, may have contributed to his problem.

Having dealt with those problems at close range in my own family (mother, alcoholism; sister, mental illness and eventual suicide) I can relate, I can relate.

[Rob McAlpine]

I thought he was trying to tie the subatomic theory to objects that we can perceive.
" there are no public objects out there sitting in some pre existing space"
I think he is simplifying what quantum mechanics actually predicts.

Oh, sorry. Yes, I think that's at least in part what Hoffman is doing, inasmuch as I understand it. However, if Rob's boat and wife existed on the quantum plane, they would have a disquietingly non-zero probability of being in my slip and evil hands, respectively, as we speak.

I'm not sure Sparky is the sort of boat you want for the way you use a boat, she's probably a lot smaller inside than you're used to.

I need some brain bleach to wipe the mental image of Orestes "Dr. Evil" Munn with Beth.

I'm really glad that non-zero can easily be 1:10^100000000

[Tucky]

I'm reminded of a nice John Prine line. Talking about co-writing a song with someone and worrying about what his friend was thinking about the lyrics- "When we were writing this song I was thinking about my wife . . . . . . . . . and I was hoping he wasn't".

[Orestes Munn]

I thought he was trying to tie the subatomic theory to objects that we can perceive.
" there are no public objects out there sitting in some pre existing space"
I think he is simplifying what quantum mechanics actually predicts.

Oh, sorry. Yes, I think that's at least in part what Hoffman is doing, inasmuch as I understand it. However, if Rob's boat and wife existed on the quantum plane, they would have a disquietingly non-zero probability of being in my slip and evil hands, respectively, as we speak.

I'm not sure Sparky is the sort of boat you want for the way you use a boat, she's probably a lot smaller inside than you're used to.

I need some brain bleach to wipe the mental image of Orestes "Dr. Evil" Munn with Beth.

I'm really glad that non-zero can easily be 1:10^100000000

While I admire both, I have no designs, evil or otherwise, on your boat or your wife.

[BeauV]

I've often thought that much of our general perception of reality is based on the way we perceive time. For example, to a person from the middle ages out average lifetimes of 80 years would be an amazing gift. They rarely knew their grandchildren let alone their great-grandchildren. It's my understanding that we have doubled the average lifespan, which is quite a gift.

In contrast, I also think that we humans have very little ability to actually understand and internalize time that is much beyond a couple of human lifetimes. I find it somewhat nutty that we as a species are so focused on clinging to some thoughts of "eternity". Even suns don't last forever, or our universe for that matter, and yet we keep inventing things to assuage our angst around our personal and species' mortality.

[SemiSalt]

Sometimes companies will offer up that tney have "100 years of experience", or something like that. Not really. You would think that the US would have 227 years of experience at government, but if you are of a certain age, say over 55, you will have listened to the ideas of some wippersnapper, and thought "been there, done that, didn't work."

On the subject of eternity, the vastness of the universe, I think mankind has a lot of difficulty dealing with the thought of a universe without consciousness. How would it make sense if there was no one and nothing with awareness? I had a flash of this sort of reaction a long time ago when the first pictures were sent back from the surface of Mars. This would have been Viking 1, circa 1976. Somehow we got a volume of color photos. My first reaction was "There are pebbles Mars. Of what possible use are pebbles on Mars [where no one could ever see them]."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_1

[kimbottles]

Given the vastness of the universe and the billions of galaxies (let alone Suns and Planets) there has to be life elsewhere out there somewhere. Don't know the form it would have but it has to be out there.

I like lying on my back late at night outdoors with my good binoculars and looking at all the stars I can't see with just my eyes. Really good light gathering binos really let you see the massive amount of stuff out there. And of course you are looking at the past given the amount of time light takes to get here.

I love thinking about that stuff.

[Rob McAlpine]

Kim, there's the Drake Equation to calculate the probability of intelligent life. SETI has failed miserably at locating intelligent alien life possessing technology, then there's Fermi's Paradox.

To me the problem is that, unless life on earth is a case of directed panspermia (seeding by aliens), we really have only one proven occurrence of abiogenesis even on earth, from which all life here is descended, and only one case, out of billions of species which have existed on earth, of a species developing technology to release signals into space.

I think if you find one more occurrence, then we are non-unique and I'll argue that the galaxy is teeming with intelligent life. Until then, I have a hard time getting from a dead chemical soup struck by lightning to self-replicating RNA to Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and JMW Turner's Fighting Temeraire.

[BeauV]

Despite the amazingly good odds of there being other "life" in space, which given the size of the place seems reasonable, there is still the possibility that we're the only ones. The odds of being along never go to zero. (See Zeno's Paradox)

[kimbottles]

Kim, there's the Drake Equation to calculate the probability of intelligent life. SETI has failed miserably at locating intelligent alien life possessing technology, then there's Fermi's Paradox.

To me the problem is that, unless life on earth is a case of directed panspermia (seeding by aliens), we really have only one proven occurrence of abiogenesis even on earth, from which all life here is descended, and only one case, out of billions of species which have existed on earth, of a species developing technology to release signals into space.

I think if you find one more occurrence, then we are non-unique and I'll argue that the galaxy is teeming with intelligent life. Until then, I have a hard time getting from a dead chemical soup struck by lightning to self-replicating RNA to Eine Kleine Nachtmusik and JMW Turner's Fighting Temeraire.

Note: I did not claim intelligent life, just life.

[Jamie]

Why would we expect them to be communicating by radio and even if they did, expect that the radio waves would be reaching us now?

How far out is our own bubble of sub-light radio communications? 70-100 light years? We've not yet made it to the local 7-11.

[BeauV]

Why would we expect them to be communicating by radio and even if they did, expect that the radio waves would be reaching us now?

How far out is our own bubble of sub-light radio communications? 70-100 light years? We've not yet made it to the local 7-11.

Yup!

Another interesting thought is that once we go through the sub-light radio bubble, then we went quite. Rather than TV broadcast, we run fiber cable. We are steadily reducing the energy we broadcast because we want to save energy. No reason to believe that other intelligent folks wouldn't have gone through the same process. Our transmission bubble could last 200 years and then end. The other folk's transmission bubble could have been a bit longer or shorter, but it too would probably end because broadcasting to the entire universe is wasteful.

It could also be dangerous.

[Ish]

Why would we expect them to be communicating by radio and even if they did, expect that the radio waves would be reaching us now?

How far out is our own bubble of sub-light radio communications? 70-100 light years? We've not yet made it to the local 7-11.

Yup!

Another interesting thought is that once we go through the sub-light radio bubble, then we went quite. Rather than TV broadcast, we run fiber cable. We are steadily reducing the energy we broadcast because we want to save energy. No reason to believe that other intelligent folks wouldn't have gone through the same process. Our transmission bubble could last 200 years and then end. The other folk's transmission bubble could have been a bit longer or shorter, but it too would probably end because broadcasting to the entire universe is wasteful.

It could also be dangerous.

Any slightly more advanced species could be selling lots on Earth as vacation properties, pending removal of the savages.

[Jamie]

Why would we expect them to be communicating by radio and even if they did, expect that the radio waves would be reaching us now?

How far out is our own bubble of sub-light radio communications? 70-100 light years? We've not yet made it to the local 7-11.

Yup!

Another interesting thought is that once we go through the sub-light radio bubble, then we went quite. Rather than TV broadcast, we run fiber cable. We are steadily reducing the energy we broadcast because we want to save energy. No reason to believe that other intelligent folks wouldn't have gone through the same process. Our transmission bubble could last 200 years and then end. The other folk's transmission bubble could have been a bit longer or shorter, but it too would probably end because broadcasting to the entire universe is wasteful.

It could also be dangerous.

Any slightly more advanced species could be selling lots on Earth as vacation properties, pending removal of the savages.

Snack food

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtPYTfS8Kuw[/youtube]

[Charlie]

Given the vastness of the universe and the billions of galaxies (let alone Suns and Planets) there has to be life elsewhere out there somewhere. Don't know the form it would have but it has to be out there.

I like lying on my back late at night outdoors with my good binoculars and looking at all the stars I can't see with just my eyes. Really good light gathering binos really let you see the massive amount of stuff out there. And of course you are looking at the past given the amount of time light takes to get here.

I love thinking about that stuff.

I just had this exact conversation with my daughter tonight - about looking at the stars and seeing into the past. It was especially meaningful since good conversations with her are frustratingly rare these days. Anybody else ever have a 14 year old? Does it get better?

[Rob McAlpine]

Next winter take her skiing, ride the chair. Spend more time listening than talking. It not only gets better, it gets downright good.

[kimbottles]

Given the vastness of the universe and the billions of galaxies (let alone Suns and Planets) there has to be life elsewhere out there somewhere. Don't know the form it would have but it has to be out there.

I like lying on my back late at night outdoors with my good binoculars and looking at all the stars I can't see with just my eyes. Really good light gathering binos really let you see the massive amount of stuff out there. And of course you are looking at the past given the amount of time light takes to get here.

I love thinking about that stuff.

I just had this exact conversation with my daughter tonight - about looking at the stars and seeing into the past. It was especially meaningful since good conversations with her are frustratingly rare these days. Anybody else ever have a 14 year old? Does it get better?

We have a 16 year old (step) grand daughter. She is delightful. Maybe not to our son and her mother, but certainly to us.

[BeauV]

Given the vastness of the universe and the billions of galaxies (let alone Suns and Planets) there has to be life elsewhere out there somewhere. Don't know the form it would have but it has to be out there.

I like lying on my back late at night outdoors with my good binoculars and looking at all the stars I can't see with just my eyes. Really good light gathering binos really let you see the massive amount of stuff out there. And of course you are looking at the past given the amount of time light takes to get here.

I love thinking about that stuff.

I just had this exact conversation with my daughter tonight - about looking at the stars and seeing into the past. It was especially meaningful since good conversations with her are frustratingly rare these days. Anybody else ever have a 14 year old? Does it get better?

It was darned tough talking to my daughter from 13 to 15. Then, overnight, she was looking to me to be her "protector" and her "guide". She started thinking seriously about "boys" and all of a sudden I was a guy who she could completely trust. For a time, I had to remind myself that I was the adult and that I shouldn't take teenaged-angst too000000 seriously. It was hard. But just like when a daughter is 3 or 4, when she gets old enough to accept you again as a "Dad", it's great!!

[floating dutchman]

Given the vastness of the universe and the billions of galaxies (let alone Suns and Planets) there has to be life elsewhere out there somewhere. Don't know the form it would have but it has to be out there.

I like lying on my back late at night outdoors with my good binoculars and looking at all the stars I can't see with just my eyes. Really good light gathering binos really let you see the massive amount of stuff out there. And of course you are looking at the past given the amount of time light takes to get here.

I love thinking about that stuff.

I'm very much with Kim on this.
I guess that's why I like the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy so much. Still can't look at White Mice without wondering what the little buggers are thinking.

Jeroen.

[floating dutchman]

Jamie, you forgot the best part of that movie!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkX3pD8xL8Y[/youtube]

The first time I watched one of the Lord of the Rings flicks, I saw the "Wingnuts Films Presents.." and thought "Oh fuck, here we go again!"

Yea, Peter Jackson got into a bit of hot water over the clip above, and probably should have.

Jeroen.

[BeauV]

Waste of good sheep - I'd like the stew thankyou!

[Jamie]

Jamie, you forgot the best part of that movie!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkX3pD8xL8Y[/youtube]

The first time I watched one of the Lord of the Rings flicks, I saw the "Wingnuts Films Presents.." and thought "Oh fuck, here we go again!"

Yea, Peter Jackson got into a bit of hot water over the clip above, and probably should have.

Jeroen.

I never knew that was real. I thought it was FX like everything else.

[Charlie]

Rob, Kim, Beau - Thanks for the insight!

[Tim Ford]

Paraphrasing Sagan, we are a way for the universe (cosmos) to know itself. I like that idea. I like being a tool. Tools are good. Enjoy the ride, watch out for trees.

[JoeP]

Paraphrasing Sagan, we are a way for the universe (cosmos) to know itself. I like that idea. I like being a tool. Tools are good. Enjoy the ride, watch out for trees.

So do you want us to call you a tool??? We can do that but it's not nice.

[Tim Ford]

You wouldn't be the first! (probably not the last, either).

[BeauV]

Paraphrasing Sagan, we are a way for the universe (cosmos) to know itself. I like that idea. I like being a tool. Tools are good. Enjoy the ride, watch out for trees.

I've considered the idea that humans are just the neurons of the gaia that is actually our planet. After all, doesn't a neuron think it's an individual entity? Why shouldn't it? It's plenty complex....

I'm now fading into my memories of the last few minutes of the original Men In Black movie as they zoom into the universe inside the jewel with planets inside that etc..... Recursion is a fun thing to think about.

[Tucky]

JMW Turner's Fighting Temeraire.

I saw that- one of my favorite artists and paintings. Saw a great show last summer and the movie was surprisingly good.

[Soñadora]

I'm sure PKD would have something to say about this. Where's VALIS?

At my house I do the dishes. To keep myself entertained, I am going through all the Star Trek available on Netflix. I guess when I'm done with Star Trek, the dishes will just pile up.
In a recent TNG episode, the Enterprise encountered a life form that only existed in 2 dimensions. Rather than try to get your head around it, understand that the 2D life form had no perception of 3D Enterprise. Michio Kaku proposed that it's entirely possible that the same could be happening to us. We may well coexist with some universe of unperceived dimension and we are completely unaware.

Or maybe we are just living in The Matrix. Maybe they couldn't figure out what chicken tastes like.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oEnJfZ9joY[/youtube]